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  #41  
Old 19 January 2016, 07:06 AM
Troberg Troberg is offline
 
 
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Originally Posted by ganzfeld View Post
A modern OS is a complex mess so I'm sure they all call home by default without the user knowing.
Well, at least in an open source OS like Linux, it can't be done without people knowing about it.

Quote:
It's quite a bit harder to do that without someone who knows what to look for recognizing it. So I'm not sure what you're talking about. The answer is to use a monitoring tool. There are many of them.
A monitoring tool, unless it's in a separate box on the network, can't be trusted if the OS can't be trusted. The tool only knows what the OS tells it. This is the principle of many very hard to find rootkits, which basically patches the OS to hide them.

Even if you have it on a separate box, you can't really know if they piggyback information on normal packages. Say, for example, that you use Bing (now, why anyone would prefer that over Google is something I can't explain, but some do). Would you notice if they attached a few extra bytes to each search request?

Quote:
If you still feel unsafe then, well, Apple and Linux.
Linux is the way I'm going. Apple hasn't really been more open than MS.

I'll probably set up a couple of laptops with Remix OS for games and media as well, though.

Quote:
I'm quite certain they don't give a crap what's on anyone's hard drive etc but, on the other hand, are very keen to sell more software. Part of that is trying to keep the user from doing dumb stuff. Part is trying to find out what the user needs. Part is trying to get the user more dependent on their ecosystem. There are lots of reasons.
But they also have other scary things. For example, the ability to deny any program the right to run, shouldn't it fit Microsofts vision of what's good. This is bound to be used against copied software (and, remember, in many jurisdictions, using a cracked copy is perfectly legal, as long as you have the original license), but eventually, I bet that they will use it to block competing products, such as LibreOffice or VLC.

Quote:
The real question is whether they're right: Do most users care anymore when practically every system they use is calling home all the time? I'm afraid that MS is betting on the right horse this time. I don't think the vast majority of users really mind much.
I wouldn't say that people don't care, the problem is that the average non-computer geek does not know. If they knew, they would mind.

Quote:
The real problem MS faces is that people are buying fewer PCs so they're probably right not to care about the small number they might lose over these privacy issues.
Maybe true, it's hard to tell. But, it's true that fewer PC's are sold. I think there are two main reasons:

* The need for more performance has slowed down. You simply don't need to replace your computer as often.
* The tablet/phone boom. This has caused a temporary dip in PC sales, as people has bought tablets/smartphones instead with their "electronics budget". However, once people have tablets/smartphones, they'll realize that they are not really a substitute for a computer and that their computer is getting old, so I think that trend will pass.

Quote:
Apple, by the way, is making the same bet. They haven't turned the screws as far as MS but it's not as if Apple's far behind. Their software wants the user to be connected with Apple in as many ways possible and much of that is by default.
Apple is as bad as MS, and has been from the start, long before MS went bad. Heck, the first Macs even required special tools to open.

Quote:
I would go to Linux for everything but it's still a pain to maintain. The users simply don't want to deal with it.
I don't agree. Choose the right Linux and it takes care of itself. Hardware just works, software updates automatically, the user is protected from himself.

I've set up a bunch of Linux machines for complete computer newbies (old people with no computer experience at all). I set them up with virus protection, LibreOffice, media player, web browser, video conferencing, som games, the usual stuff, set everything to autoupdate and set stuff like fonts, colors and mouse sensitivity to suit older people. Then, I locked it down so that everything they wouldn't want to do wasn't accessible.

No troubles at all. They just keep working, and everybody is happy.

Now, I'm a bit lazy and stuck with the Linuxes I know and set them up, but there are distros made for exactly such scenarios, where you don't have to do anything.
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  #42  
Old 19 January 2016, 02:22 PM
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DawnStorm DawnStorm is offline
 
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Never heard of Remix--is this a new OS?
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  #43  
Old 19 January 2016, 02:53 PM
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ganzfeld ganzfeld is offline
 
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It's one of several Android OS ports for desktops. (Not sure but I'm pretty sure they're all free. There are lots of options out there.)
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  #44  
Old 20 January 2016, 05:55 AM
Coughdrops Coughdrops is offline
 
 
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From Microsoft's privacy statement:

Quote:
Personal Data We Collect

Microsoft collects data to operate effectively and provide you the best experiences with our services. You provide some of this data directly, such as when you create a Microsoft account, submit a search query to Bing, speak a voice command to Cortana, upload a document to OneDrive, complete a survey, or contact us for support. We get some of it by recording how you interact with our services by, for example, using technologies like cookies, and receiving error reports or usage data from software running on your device.

We also obtain data from third parties (including other companies). For example, we supplement the data we collect by purchasing demographic data from other companies. We also use services from other companies to help us determine a location based on your IP address in order to customize certain services to your location.

The data we collect depends on the services and features you use, and includes the following.

Name and contact data. We collect your first and last name, email address, postal address, phone number, and other similar contact data.

Credentials. We collect passwords, password hints, and similar security information used for authentication and account access.

Demographic data. We collect data about you such as your age, gender, country and preferred language.

Interests and favorites. We collect data about your interests and favorites, such as the teams you follow in a sports app, the stocks you track in a finance app, or the favorite cities you add to a weather app. In addition to those you explicitly provide, your interests and favorites may also be inferred or derived from other data we collect.

Payment data. We collect data necessary to process your payment if you make purchases, such as your payment instrument number (such as a credit card number), and the security code associated with your payment instrument.

Usage data. We collect data about how you interact with our services. This includes data, such as the features you use, the items you purchase, the web pages you visit, and the search terms you enter. This also includes data about your device and the network you use to connect to our services, including IP address, device identifiers (such as the IMEI number for phones), regional and language settings. It includes information about the operating systems and other software installed on your device, including product keys. And it includes data about the performance of the services and any problems you experience with them.

Contacts and relationships. We collect data about your contacts and relationships if you use a Microsoft service to manage contacts, or to communicate or interact with other people or organizations.

Location data. We collect data about your location, which can be either precise or imprecise. Precise location data can be Global Position System (GPS) data, as well as data identifying nearby cell towers and Wi-Fi hotspots, we collect when you enable location-based services or features. Imprecise location data includes, for example, a location derived from your IP address or data that indicates where you are located with less precision, such as at a city or postal code level.

Content. We collect content of your files and communications when necessary to provide you with the services you use. For example, if you receive an email using Outlook.com, we need to collect the content of that email in order to deliver it to your inbox, display it to you, enable you to reply to it, and store it for you until you choose to delete it. Examples of this data include: the content of your documents, photos, music or video you upload to a Microsoft service such as OneDrive, as well as the content of your communications sent or received using Microsoft services such Outlook.com or Skype, including the:

subject line and body of an email,
text or other content of an instant message,
audio and video recording of a video message, and
audio recording and transcript of a voice message you receive or a text message you dictate.

We also collect the content of messages you send to us, such as feedback and product reviews you write, or questions and information you provide for customer support. When you contact us, such as for customer support, phone conversations or chat sessions with our representatives may be monitored and recorded. If you enter our retail stores, your image may be captured by our security cameras.

You have choices about the data we collect. When you are asked to provide personal data, you may decline. But if you choose not to provide data that is necessary to provide a service, you may not be able to use some features or services.

Service-specific sections below describe data collection practices applicable to use of those services.
Maybe it's not a plot to enslave us, but this is all just too intrusive. Microsoft does not need to be looking through the files on my hard drive, reading my emails, or otherwise building a profile of me. So no thank you Microsoft, I am not getting 10 and I am not turning updates on my 7 back on either.
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  #45  
Old 20 January 2016, 06:53 AM
Troberg Troberg is offline
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DawnStorm View Post
Never heard of Remix--is this a new OS?
It's an Android version that's actually made for the desktop. So, it has a start menu, task bar, programs opens in resizable windows, preemptive multitasking and so on. Basically, it's like KDE or Windows, from a user experience, but runs Android apps.

Also, as it's open source, there can be no hidden malware/spyware in it (at least not for long).

It looks very promising. It's now in beta, if the final release looks as promising, I'm going to get a couple of laptops to try it out on.
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  #46  
Old 20 January 2016, 07:11 AM
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ganzfeld ganzfeld is offline
 
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You should at least give the URL. That's their policy for services. It reads almost exactly as any other company offering services. Not that I think that makes it much better but everyone is in CYA mode these days: Everyone; Not only MS.

But here they are putting it in black and white. So, for the nth time, if you don't like it, don't give them your money and don't use their services. I can understand some complaining - it's very good, in fact. (I'm a big complainer myself.) But, eventually, when it rises to this level hyperbole or (I hope not) actual paranoia, that's the bottom line. Otherwise shouldn't everyone who doesn't send them money blame you for supporting them? It's not as if they suddenly made this policy; it's been like this for almost a decade. (Actually, I think exactly a decade sometime this year.)

ETA - Reading your replies on the board it doesn't surprise me but, needless to say, it doesn't say anything remotely like what you claimed.
Quote:
Apparently Win 10 tracks, monitors, examines, and "preserves" everything you do on your PC. Every document you open, edit, or save. The contents of every drive you connect and every folder you browse. Every picture or video you view. Every MP3 you listen to. Every network and server you connect to. Every email you read and send (regardless of the host or browser). Every program you install.

Last edited by ganzfeld; 20 January 2016 at 07:37 AM.
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  #47  
Old 20 January 2016, 11:50 AM
Troberg Troberg is offline
 
 
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One must also remember that, for many, switching OS isn't as easy as simple installing something else.

Most organizations have a lot of special solutions, built for their specific environment. Also, there are a lot of people who need to be retrained. Even if the long term gains are worth it, the short to mid term costs are usually prohibitive.

So, a change is often not an option, as many are already locked in the clutches of MS.
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  #48  
Old 20 January 2016, 03:14 PM
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Seaboe Muffinchucker Seaboe Muffinchucker is offline
 
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Not that this will make a difference, but some of that stuff they keep because some of their users want to be able to recover the information if it's lost (IMs, for instance).

Having participated in my fair share of document reviews, I have to say that unless MS starts hiring hundreds and thousands of people to do nothing every day except review the data that comes flooding in (and there's no indication that they are), they are not reading your messages. They don't have the time.

Seaboe
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  #49  
Old 20 January 2016, 03:29 PM
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Lainie Lainie is offline
 
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That's the post-retirement job I want: reading strangers' emails.
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  #50  
Old 20 January 2016, 03:46 PM
Onyx_TKD Onyx_TKD is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coughdrops View Post
From Microsoft's privacy statement:



Maybe it's not a plot to enslave us, but this is all just too intrusive. Microsoft does not need to be looking through the files on my hard drive, reading my emails, or otherwise building a profile of me. So no thank you Microsoft, I am not getting 10 and I am not turning updates on my 7 back on either.
Um, I don't trust Microsoft either, but your quote really isn't supporting your point. For example, your complaint about them "reading [your] emails"--the only place where they mention collecting content from your emails (as opposed to having your email address as a piece of contact info for you) is in the following section:
Quote:
Content. We collect content of your files and communications when necessary to provide you with the services you use. For example, if you receive an email using Outlook.com, we need to collect the content of that email in order to deliver it to your inbox, display it to you, enable you to reply to it, and store it for you until you choose to delete it. Examples of this data include: the content of your documents, photos, music or video you upload to a Microsoft service such as OneDrive, as well as the content of your communications sent or received using Microsoft services such Outlook.com or Skype, including the:

subject line and body of an email,
text or other content of an instant message,
audio and video recording of a video message, and
audio recording and transcript of a voice message you receive or a text message you dictate.
Notice the qualifier "if you receive an email using Outlook.com". IOW, they access content of your email when you choose to route your email through their email service. As they logically must have some access in order to provide the service (as they explain). If you don't trust them to handle that data responsibly, you can use another service. I stopped using Outlook long before I had a non-Windows OS, so I'm frankly puzzled why anyone who distrusts Microsoft as much as you claim to would still be using Microsoft's email service rather than one of the others available.

In addition, the fact that they specify Outlook.com rather than the Outlook program also suggests that this privacy policy is for online services, not for the operating system or for software to be installed on your PC. (The reference to OneDrive, another online service, rather than your hard drive further supports that interpretation.) I'm not sure why you think the online services privacy policy has any bearing on which Windows OS version to use. Relying on such tenuously connected "evidence" to support your claims Windows 10 weakens your argument rather than supporting it.
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