snopes.com  

Go Back   snopes.com > SLC Central > Soapbox Derby

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 07 January 2016, 04:43 AM
Little Pink Pill's Avatar
Little Pink Pill Little Pink Pill is offline
 
Join Date: 03 September 2005
Location: California
Posts: 6,931
Default Cologne Mayor's 'code of conduct' to prevent sexual assault angers many

Amidst the controversy and protests following a series of sexual assaults in Cologne on New Year's Eve, the city's mayor has waded into the debate with a suggestions for how women can help avoid danger, which have proved highly controversial online.

Her proposed guidelines included sticking to a group of trusted acquaintances, asking for help from others and informing the police. But it was her suggestion that women should keep at "an arm's length" from strangers that has triggered most outrage on social media, with the phrase turned into a hashtag - #EineArmLaenge - on Twitter. Thousands of messages have been posted using the phrase.

http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-35243482
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 07 January 2016, 04:58 AM
crocoduck_hunter's Avatar
crocoduck_hunter crocoduck_hunter is offline
 
Join Date: 27 May 2009
Location: Roseburg, OR
Posts: 11,664
Default

Ah, once again the onus is put on women to avoid being raped, as if rape were some sort of random meteorological phenomenon.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 07 January 2016, 05:00 AM
Errata's Avatar
Errata Errata is offline
 
Join Date: 02 August 2005
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 13,007
Default

Honestly, what do women expect, shamelessly going out in public without wearing the hijab and flanked by close male relatives?

It's amazing that Merkel managed to suppress this story for the better part of a week, when the media had known about this and similar incidents elsewhere in Germany for days and sat on it.

Perhaps flexing their new toys to try to keep anyone from being about discuss it, before realizing there were too many victims for it to be feasible.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 07 January 2016, 07:18 AM
Troberg Troberg is offline
 
 
Join Date: 04 November 2005
Location: Borlänge, Sweden
Posts: 11,580
Default

While it's a clumsy statement, it is not completely without merits.

I don't say that women has the responsibility to avoid being raped, or that those who "behave wrongly" deserve to be raped. Rape is always wrong.

However, the world being as it is, wrong things happen, and you can lessen the risk of it happening to you by behaving in a risk-aware way.

This is not just something that concerns rape. It could be about just about any crime.

Don't walk home alone drunk, and the risk that you'll be robbed is smaller. Don't do gay cuddling in front of skinheads, and the risk that you'll be attacked is smaller. Put a lock on your door, and the risk of being burglared is smaller. Don't walk home alone drunk, and the risk of being raped is smaller. Look before you cross the street, even at a zebra crossing, and the risk of getting hit by a car is smaller. You have no obligation to run if someone starts shooting, but the risk of getting shot is smaller.

There are things you can do to decrease the risk. No one should demand that you do, and if something happens, it's not your fault either way. But, it's also in your own interest to be risk aware and take certain precautions. It not being your own fauly may not be much comfort when it has happened to you, compared to being prepared and not having it happen to you.

This doesn't mean that, if it does happen, it's your fault, even if you did one of the things that would increase the risk. It's still wrong, it's still not your fault. Risk management has nothing to do with blame. They are two completely unrelated issues.

The world being what it is, and the risks being what they are, it does makes sense to actually be aware of them and be a bit careful.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 07 January 2016, 08:06 PM
Little Pink Pill's Avatar
Little Pink Pill Little Pink Pill is offline
 
Join Date: 03 September 2005
Location: California
Posts: 6,931
Default

Absurd "arm length" comment aside, I don't understand what the mayor even means about sticking to trusted acquaintances. Some of those women were with men who couldn't help them, and it sounds like they had to run a gauntlet through the mob to even get out of the station.

I also don't think the remarks she made about other cultures needing to be told that festive behavior is not the same as sexual openness is condescending. Women were running, fighting, screaming, and crying. Being from another country doesn't make you unable to interpret those human emotions.

ETA-Errata, I've traveled enough to have experienced much smaller episodes of this sort of behavior, and it wasn't necessarily from Muslims. It was from cultures that had a reputation for severely oppressing women, though.

Last edited by Little Pink Pill; 07 January 2016 at 08:28 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 07 January 2016, 08:58 PM
ganzfeld's Avatar
ganzfeld ganzfeld is offline
 
Join Date: 05 September 2005
Location: Kyoto, Japan
Posts: 23,238
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Pink Pill View Post
ETA-Errata, I've traveled enough to have experienced much smaller episodes of this sort of behavior, and it wasn't necessarily from Muslims. It was from cultures that had a reputation for severely oppressing women, though.
Such an extremely important point. But I'm afraid it will be lost in background noise.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 07 January 2016, 09:12 PM
WildaBeast's Avatar
WildaBeast WildaBeast is offline
 
Join Date: 18 July 2002
Location: Folsom, CA
Posts: 14,877
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by crocoduck_hunter View Post
Ah, once again the onus is put on women to avoid being raped, as if rape were some sort of random meteorological phenomenon.
When I saw the headline I was expecting the code of conduct would be about defining what consent means and that kind of thing, with the anger coming from men's rights activists complaining that of course they know what consent means and that it was insulting to assume that need to be told not to rape women. But alas, it turned out to be more of the typical putting the onus on women to avoid being raped.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 07 January 2016, 10:49 PM
Errata's Avatar
Errata Errata is offline
 
Join Date: 02 August 2005
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 13,007
Default

Not an isolated incident, there appear to have been a number of coordinated events in immigration hot spots across Europe.

New Year’s Eve sex assaults also reported in Finland, Sweden and Austria. Also several other major German cities, such as Hamburg, where:
Quote:
police said Wednesday that they had received 53 complaints, more than half of them alleging sexual harassment, from victims age 18 to 25. They appear to have been targeted in a similar fashion in that city’s Reeperbahn red-light and club district on New Year’s Eve. Victims and witnesses in Hamburg also described the attackers as being dark-skinned or “looking Arabic.”
In a Cologne police report:

Quote:
People tore up their residence documents before the police officers' eyes, commenting "You can't do a thing, I'll get a new document tomorrow"; one person is quoted as saying: "I'm Syrian, you have to be friendly to me! Mrs. Merkel invited me."
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 08 January 2016, 06:26 PM
Errata's Avatar
Errata Errata is offline
 
Join Date: 02 August 2005
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 13,007
Default

More reports keep coming in of coordinated attacks throughout Central and Northern Europe. Cologne's police chief was put into forced retirement after the extent of the coverup emerged. Refugees arrested with stolen phones from the victims and with videos of the assaults.

Quote:
Earlier, police arrested two men "of an immigrant background" in connection with the sex attacks. One of the men was carrying a note in German and Arabic with translations of phrases including “Beautiful breasts”, “I want to have sex with you” and “I’ll kill you”, according to police.
Quote:
More than 170 women have now come forward and filed criminal complaints over the New Year’s Eve incidents in Cologne, 113 of them for sexual assault.
Quote:
They have drawn particular outrage for initially claiming there was no evidence that asylum seekers were involved in the violence, only for it to emerge that they had in fact detained several on the night.
Quote:
Police have identified 31 suspects, of whom 18 are asylum seekers, the German interior ministry said. They are not suspected of sexual assault, but of physical violence and theft.
Of course nothing will ever be done. The talks of deportation are empty threats even for those caught red handed. For one thing they'll claim it's unsafe, and that's that. For another, they'd just walk back across the uncontrolled border again and make up a new name.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 08 January 2016, 06:36 PM
omegazord omegazord is offline
 
 
Join Date: 14 January 2015
Location: Yorkshire, UK
Posts: 64
Default

how do you go from "stuff happening in a bunch of places" to these being "coordinated attacks"?
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 08 January 2016, 07:05 PM
Little Pink Pill's Avatar
Little Pink Pill Little Pink Pill is offline
 
Join Date: 03 September 2005
Location: California
Posts: 6,931
Default

But something has to be done. It will make anti immigration sentiment worse if solid solutions aren't immediately implemented. I don't know if it should be massive education efforts or criminal prosecutions or better screening, but I've been in regions where your personal safety as a woman is constantly threatened or violated every time you are out in public, and living in fear of being groped and jeered and pushed and fondled is life changing. In those cultures gays often live in fear of assault and brutality as well. That isn't an acceptable new norm.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 08 January 2016, 07:25 PM
Sue's Avatar
Sue Sue is offline
 
Join Date: 26 December 2011
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 8,500
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Errata View Post
Honestly, what do women expect, shamelessly going out in public without wearing the hijab and flanked by close male relatives?
That's certainly the way friends of mine and myself were treated as far back as the '80s in Montreal when we dared to attend public university wearing such sexually provocative clothing as jeans and sweatshirts. We were told, even then, that you can't be surprised when men from certain cultures leered and groped and made suggestive remarks. The fault was ours for not conforming to their cultural expectations, apparently.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 08 January 2016, 08:15 PM
Rebochan's Avatar
Rebochan Rebochan is offline
 
Join Date: 19 February 2002
Location: Montreal, QC
Posts: 11,608
Jaded

You know, it's been fantastic that now that we can blame it on ethnic people, we're suddenly REALLY CONCERNED about rape culture! I mean, it's not like it was a problem before January 1st, 2016, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sue View Post
That's certainly the way friends of mine and myself were treated as far back as the '80s in Montreal when we dared to attend public university wearing such sexually provocative clothing as jeans and sweatshirts. We were told, even then, that you can't be surprised when men from certain cultures leered and groped and made suggestive remarks. The fault was ours for not conforming to their cultural expectations, apparently.
Ding. And hey, didn't we just have a thread a few weeks ago about an American woman who was raped inside her own home by an intruder and was forced to plead guilty for filing a "false report"? And let's not forget how attempts to report on the disturbing trends of sexual assault on American campuses continue to get swept away under concerns of "But what about the men?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Errata View Post
More reports keep coming in of coordinated attacks throughout Central and Northern Europe.
Actually, those reports are proving heavily exaggerated and clearly not "coordinated". Your source didn't even make that assertion, though it hasn't stopped people from declaring a coordinated assault by the barbarian hordes.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news...7a12db09e94062

But I'm glad you're a new convert to being very worried about what happens to women facing rape culture, and you're not at all just manipulating victims of sexual assault to push your personal agendas.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 08 January 2016, 08:26 PM
Errata's Avatar
Errata Errata is offline
 
Join Date: 02 August 2005
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 13,007
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebochan View Post
But I'm glad you're a new convert to being very worried about what happens to women facing rape culture, and you're not at all just manipulating victims of sexual assault to push your personal agendas.
It's must be very hard to deal with the cognitive dissonance when one part of your agenda contradicts everything else, including basic human decency. At what point did you decide that Muslim men are more important than women?

I'm not a new convert to anything. I support secular liberal values, including women's rights, lgbt rights, civil rights for minorities, and reducing economic inequality. I have no problem with most immigrant groups that just want to live peacefully and assimilate to Western culture rather than subvert it. But one particular culture is opposed to all of these values, and if we're too afraid to talk about it and sweep it under the rug we will lose a lot of progress on these other issues that was very hard to achieve.

Last edited by Errata; 08 January 2016 at 08:50 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 08 January 2016, 08:35 PM
Little Pink Pill's Avatar
Little Pink Pill Little Pink Pill is offline
 
Join Date: 03 September 2005
Location: California
Posts: 6,931
Default

I don't know what the point would even be for a "coordinated assault" though. We're seeking asylum so let's all go out and rape people!

I think it's far more likely that this was something that happened on different levels in multiple places as a result of shared cultural framework that is more brazen than America's rape culture.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 08 January 2016, 09:09 PM
Rebochan's Avatar
Rebochan Rebochan is offline
 
Join Date: 19 February 2002
Location: Montreal, QC
Posts: 11,608
Ponder

Quote:
Originally Posted by Errata View Post
It's must be very hard to deal with the cognitive dissonance when one part of your agenda contradicts everything else, including basic human decency. At what point did you decide that Muslim men are more important than women?
It must be very difficult for you to comprehend that I can be upset about what happens to victims of sexual assault without using it as an excuse for further discrimination.

Quote:
I'm not a new convert to anything. I support secular liberal values, including women's rights, lgbt rights, civil rights for minorities, and reducing economic inequality. I have no problem with most immigrant groups that just want to live peacefully and assimilate to Western culture rather than subvert it.
You've also expressed in the past that women and other oppressed groups from certain countries can go right back to countries more "accommodating to their culture", so stop with the crocodile tears. The only time you ever brought up the violence these people are fleeing was to proclaim "See?! See what those Muslim savages are doing to each other?!"

Quote:
But one particular culture is opposed to all of these values, and if we're too afraid to talk about it and sweep it under the rug we will lose a lot of progress on these other issues that was very hard to achieve.
It must be very easy for you to compartmentalize all the world's evil into one group of people you can then declare we need to rid ourselves of.

I just gave you two very American and secular examples of women being raped and assaulted RECENTLY and not finding much in the way of justice, but its kinda funny how its always an uphill battle if the perpetrators might look too much like us. Oh, I'm sure that's somehow the fault of accommodating Muslim culture as well.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 08 January 2016, 09:19 PM
Errata's Avatar
Errata Errata is offline
 
Join Date: 02 August 2005
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 13,007
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebochan View Post
You've also expressed in the past that women and other oppressed groups from certain countries can go right back to countries more "accommodating to their culture", so stop with the crocodile tears. The only time you ever brought up the violence these people are fleeing was to proclaim "See?! See what those Muslim savages are doing to each other?!"
Wrong, I said that this current wave of immigrants should stay in countries with a compatible culture. They are overwhelmingly young single men like these rapists, not vulnerable groups. If the very small minority who are not want to claim asylum it would be a different matter, but that's not who Europe is getting right now. A lot of them aren't even really from Syria. They're economic migrants from anywhere in the Middle East or Northern Africa who show up to uncontrolled borders claiming to be escaping Syria.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 08 January 2016, 09:27 PM
Sue's Avatar
Sue Sue is offline
 
Join Date: 26 December 2011
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 8,500
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Pink Pill View Post
I don't know what the point would even be for a "coordinated assault" though. We're seeking asylum so let's all go out and rape people!

I think it's far more likely that this was something that happened on different levels in multiple places as a result of shared cultural framework that is more brazen than America's rape culture.
In a way that's even worse than a coordinated assault would have been. At least if it had been coordinated you could foresee catching a ringleader or two. If this is just men behaving badly because they can and it's on this kind of scale that's pretty bad.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 08 January 2016, 09:58 PM
omegazord omegazord is offline
 
 
Join Date: 14 January 2015
Location: Yorkshire, UK
Posts: 64
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Errata View Post
Wrong, I said that this current wave of immigrants should stay in countries with a compatible culture. They are overwhelmingly young single men like these rapists, not vulnerable groups. If the very small minority who are not want to claim asylum it would be a different matter, but that's not who Europe is getting right now. A lot of them aren't even really from Syria. They're economic migrants from anywhere in the Middle East or Northern Africa who show up to uncontrolled borders claiming to be escaping Syria.
I expect you have absolutely watertight citations for each if these claims, yes?

That, of the current "wave of immigrants",

A: they are overwhelmingly young single men
B: they are like these rapists
C: they are not vulnerable
D: only a small minority are not A, B and C
E: they're not from Syria
F: they're economic migrants
G: Europe's borders are uncontrolled
H: they're not really fleeing Syria

Do tell. I'm all ears.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 08 January 2016, 11:21 PM
Coughdrops Coughdrops is offline
 
 
Join Date: 15 June 2015
Location: Columbia, MO
Posts: 786
Default

If one is seeking asylum in a country, then it falls on one to obey the law of that country. Even if one is fleeing horrible circumstances or has been persecuted that isn't an excuse to behave however one wishes.

The best thing to do in these cases IMHO is to just prosecute them like you would a native-born citizen. It has to be shown that the laws apply equally to everyone living in the country. Treating someone differently because you feel bad about their status as a refugee, while tempting, is only going to breed resentment towards them.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Woody Allen’s Adoptive Daughter Speaks Out About Her Sexual Assault Sue Amusement Bark 90 20 January 2018 03:11 AM
Porn Star Sues Josh Duggar for Assault and Battery After Alleged Sexual Encounter TallGeekyGirl Amusement Bark 17 13 February 2016 02:25 PM
California Lawmakers Pass 'Affirmative Consent' Sexual Assault Bill WildaBeast Social Studies 19 30 August 2014 07:07 PM
Daily Show provides advice for combating sexual assault she-geek Soapbox Derby 0 03 July 2014 07:11 PM
Italian protester charged with sexual assault after kissing riot police officer A Turtle Named Mack Police Blotter 2 17 December 2013 04:05 PM


All times are GMT. The time now is 11:26 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.