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Old 16 November 2018, 05:35 PM
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No Outrage after girl's thong used as evidence of consent in Irish rape trial

Outrage after girl's thong used as evidence of consent in Irish rape trial
Quote:
DUBLIN -- Protests have flared across Ireland this week triggering a viral campaign online after a defense lawyer showed a 17-year-old girl's thong or G-string in court as alleged proof of her consent in a rape case.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ireland...sent-protests/

I honestly can't believe this happens in a civilized country today.
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  #2  
Old 16 November 2018, 07:07 PM
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But the accused rapist was wearing Y-fronts, cleary so he could quickly rape her and get dressed.
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Old 16 November 2018, 08:14 PM
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What's worse is that apparently it worked. According to the article he was acquitted.
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Old 16 November 2018, 09:51 PM
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That was the one and only claim the defense put forward, and the proesecution's case was air tight?
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Old 16 November 2018, 11:39 PM
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ASL, I nearly added to my post that I couldn't tell from the article what the other evidence was. And if other evidence makes it seem likely that the charge was false, or even that it's impossible to tell whether it was or not, then you've got a good point.

It does, however, read as if the accused wasn't claiming that whatever specific act he was accused of hadn't occurred, but that it had occurred but was consensual: and the evidence being brought for its being consensual was the underwear. If there was other good reason to think that it was consensual, why bring out the underwear? And, if the defendant actually thinks that wearing thong underwear means consent, that raises for me a strong implication that the defendant has no idea what consent actually is, and therefore is likely to ignore the lack of it.
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Old 16 November 2018, 11:53 PM
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Hey, I’m more than happy to buy into a story about how one of those supposedly more enlightened/socially conscious Western European countries isn’t really all it’s cracked up to be.

With that said, this reads more like something intended to get clicks (through outrage) than to go into the nitty-gritty details of the case, with a faithful representation of all the key facts. While I am willing to believe that the defense attorney brought out the thing as described and that it was unacceptable to do so under any circumstances, I stop short of accepting that the case (and the question of consent) must surely have hinged on the thong.
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Old 17 November 2018, 12:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thorny locust View Post

It does, however, read as if the accused wasn't claiming that whatever specific act he was accused of hadn't occurred, but that it had occurred but was consensual: and the evidence being brought for its being consensual was the underwear.
From what I can tell, the underwear was only brought out during closing arguments, so if an argument was made during the trial that the sex was consensual, it must have rested on something more than the thong.
Quote:
If there was other good reason to think that it was consensual, why bring out the underwear?
I've only been forced onto, I mean, served on one jury in my life, but from what I can tell defense attorneys tend to throw lots of evidence, good, bad or indifferent at the wall ans hope something sticks. For all we know, mentioning the thong may have repulsed the jury, but they may have found other reasons to find not guilty.
Quote:
And, if the defendant actually thinks that wearing thong underwear means consent, that raises for me a strong implication that the defendant has no idea what consent actually is, and therefore is likely to ignore the lack of it.
How do we know what the defended thinks of thongs? I doubt that lawyers go over every sentence of their closing arguments with their clients.
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Old 17 November 2018, 04:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve View Post
From what I can tell, the underwear was only brought out during closing arguments, so if an argument was made during the trial that the sex was consensual, it must have rested on something more than the thong.
Can you cite your source for that? I haven't found anything with much detail about the trial itself.

I'm not versed in Irish law, but our systems come from the same common law roots, so I'm going to make some educated guesses based on our system.

You don't make arguments during the trial. You only get to argue during opening and closing statements. During closing statements, if you want to refer to facts, like what someone was wearing, or hold up a thing the person was wearing, then those facts, and that thing, have to be in evidence. That means they have to have been brought out during the trial.

There are two main possibilities, as I see it. One, the 17 year old was asked at trial what she was wearing, and the thong was admitted into evidence in that context. Or, two, her underwear were collected as evidence and tested, and were admitted into evidence in that context, and the defense attorney used them in closing argument to make the consent argument.

Regardless, the important point is that this is an argument that is allowed, and is made. Whether we can say based on a tiny bit of information if it worked or not is pretty tangential to the point of the OP, and the protests.
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Old 17 November 2018, 04:46 AM
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Possibly the NYT article:
Quote:
During the closing argument, the defense lawyer asked the jury to consider the underwear worn by the 17-year-old woman at the time prosecutors said she was raped in a muddy alleyway by a 27-year-old man.

“Does the evidence out-rule the possibility that she was attracted to the defendant and was open to meeting someone and being with someone?” the lawyer asked, according to The Irish Times. “You have to look at the way she was dressed. She was wearing a thong with a lace front.”
ETA: more detail here: https://www.irishexaminer.com/breaki...nt-883613.html
Apparently it wasn't just about consent but whether sex even happened?
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  #10  
Old 17 November 2018, 02:42 PM
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Thanks, Esprise Me.

That seems to me to raise as many questions as it answers, however. If she said he dragged her 30 feet through the mud: did anybody look at the mud, to check for tracks? If not, why not? What about the witness who apparently said he had his hand at her throat?

Was the complainant examined by a doctor? If not, why not? If so, was there bruising, at the throat or elsewhere? (Lack of bruising of course doesn't prove consent, but its presence would nevertheless be evidence.)

And, even if they were kissing, which there also seems to be a lack of evidence for, consent for kissing is not the same thing as consent for intercourse. (And why did the person who the defendant said saw them kissing not give evidence?)
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  #11  
Old 18 November 2018, 05:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Esprise Me View Post
Possibly the NYT article:
I'd seen that quote. But it doesn't say that that was the first mention or appearance of the underwear.

ETA: more detail here: https://www.irishexaminer.com/breaki...nt-883613.html
Apparently it wasn't just about consent but whether sex even happened?[/QUOTE]

Thanks for tracking down some more info.
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