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  #21  
Old 06 September 2015, 03:34 PM
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Wait, so non-white countries don't have political leaders?
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  #22  
Old 06 September 2015, 08:59 PM
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Originally Posted by ganzfeld View Post
Wow. OK, I don't want to Godwinize the thread or anything but there are few people in history who would claim that those are "traditionally white things". I'm not sure if even today's Klan would go that far in public. However, contrary to your claim, they and lots of other trash have indeed complained about blacks and other minorities simply trying to do those things - even just talking about doing those things and millions of other things - quite loudly for the past four centuries. Well, it's not all complaining. Complaining and torturing and bombing and jailing and lynching, etc.
Yes, and I made the point that that was a bad thing. It compares those who say white people shouldn't be allowed to do certain things solely because of the color of their skin with evil racists who say the same thing about black people or others. It's the horseshoe theory in action.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe_theory

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Originally Posted by NobleHunter View Post
Non-white people have been doing science longer than white people.
Science is a human thing, not a racial thing. Actually science, the discovery of new things and new ways to do things, has probably been around since pre-human humanoid species. But in the United States, being a scientist was traditionally something only open to white males with only a few exceptions until recently.

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Wait, so non-white countries don't have political leaders?
I'm sorry, I thought it was obvious I was talking about the United States. All previous presidents being white males is a fact. That it is now much more likely that a person of any race or gender, or trans, or gay, can be president now is a good thing.

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Originally Posted by TallGeekyGirl View Post
I wonder if any school-age kids could get out of doing algebra citing cultural appropriation of the Arabic scholars that invented it?
I'd have tried it. (not really)

Last edited by Coughdrops; 06 September 2015 at 09:14 PM.
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  #23  
Old 06 September 2015, 09:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Coughdrops View Post
Yes, and I made the point that that was a bad thing.
It's not just a bad thing it's the thing that has made cultural appropriation so disgusting in the first place. It's not just that European men spread throughout the world under the presumption that they were the only ones who had a right to do those things but that every other civilization's cultural artifacts and traditions somehow belonged to them, to use as they wished. They didn't mind their own culture being imitated because, one, they assumed that it was the only one really worth mimicking in the first place (everything else was just for entertainment) and, two, they explicitly asserted non-whites would never be good at ballet and literature anyway (as if Europeans invented these things - cf the whole "white people invented civilization" BS upon which your false comparison is based, thus yet again illustrating the present need for continuing to raise awareness of cultural appropriation).
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It compares those who say white people shouldn't be allowed to do certain things solely because of the color of their skin with evil racists who say the same thing about black people or others. It's the horseshoe theory in action.
No it isn't. It's just the same bullspit reason that has been given for centuries: The false assertion that the asymmetry has been the result of fair competition rather than imperialism and racism.

Last edited by ganzfeld; 06 September 2015 at 10:03 PM.
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  #24  
Old 06 September 2015, 10:25 PM
Coughdrops Coughdrops is offline
 
 
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Originally Posted by ganzfeld View Post
It's not just a bad thing it's the thing that has made cultural appropriation so disgusting in the first place. It's not just that European men spread throughout the world under the presumption that they were the only ones who had a right to do those things but that every other civilization's cultural artifacts and traditions somehow belonged to them, to use as they wished. They didn't mind their own culture being imitated because, one, they assumed that it was the only one really worth mimicking in the first place (everything else was just for entertainment) and, two, they explicitly asserted non-whites would never be good at ballet and literature anyway (as if Europeans invented these things - cf the whole "white people invented civilization" BS upon which your false comparison is based, thus yet again illustrating the present need for continuing to raise awareness of cultural appropriation). No it isn't. It's just the same bullspit reason that has been given for centuries: The false assertion that the asymmetry has been the result of fair competition rather than imperialism and racism.
Uh-huh. Because history is totally only the evil Europeans being big meanies to everyone else. In no way has anyone else built empires, enslaved others, committed genocide, or treated others unfairly.

Ever hear of the Japanese invasions of Korea in the late 16th century? Or the Rape of Nanking and other massacres of defenseless civilians by Imperial Japan? Or the Sacking of Baghdad by the Mongols? Or the Mongol conquest of China? Although I'm sure it must have been those mean'ol Europeans lurking behind the scenes right?

Blaming white people today for things that happened long before they were born and insisting they spend their lives flagellating themselves over it is no different than blaming all Muslims for 9/11. And yes, hating someone for who they are rather than anything they personally have done IS bigotry, REGARDLESS of skin color.
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  #25  
Old 06 September 2015, 10:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Coughdrops View Post
Blaming white people today for things that happened long before they were born and insisting they spend their lives flagellating themselves over it is no different than blaming all Muslims for 9/11. And yes, hating someone for who they are rather than anything they personally have done IS bigotry, REGARDLESS of skin color.
It's a good thing that ganzfeld didn't do any of those things, then, huh?
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  #26  
Old 06 September 2015, 10:40 PM
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Good grief. This is someone complaining people are being too sensitive. "European racism and imperialism are real. They really happened. It was really bad." 'But what why are you blaming all of us now?!! And we aren't the only ones!... And why are you so sensitive??'
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  #27  
Old 06 September 2015, 10:57 PM
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Originally Posted by TallGeekyGirl View Post
I wonder if any school-age kids could get out of doing algebra citing cultural appropriation of the Arabic scholars that invented it?
Yes, they might have if they were in one of Fibonacci's classes. Or, alternatively, if they went to Slippery Slope Fallacy High School. They also don't have any physical activity because someone complained that the football team was getting too many injuries.
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  #28  
Old 07 September 2015, 12:40 AM
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Someone once told me that the "Cultural Appropriation" people are the new segregationists. And if you think about it the description fits. At best they want to divide all of humanity into separate little boxes that never interact with each other out of fear that one group might harm another. But far more often they don't want there to be a free exchange of ideas or contact between different groups of people out of some hysterical fear that the group they like will somehow be tainted by "inferior" cultures or ideas.

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It's a good thing that ganzfeld didn't do any of those things, then, huh?
I was speaking more of the general attitude of the "Cultural Appropriation" people.

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They also don't have any physical activity because someone complained that the football team was getting too many injuries.
A little brain damage never hurt anyone, and builds character.
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  #29  
Old 07 September 2015, 12:48 AM
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The segregation exists. Denying that isn't going to solve it. The people who are against recognising the problems of appropriation are segregation denialists. This is the same reasoning that says "Well, now that we have a black president black people can do anything so there's no need for any affirmative action to undo the racism of the past four centuries." Somehow it magically disappeared when a guy from Hawaii moved to Pennsylvania Ave.

No, the results of racism and imperialism are still with us every day. It may not be the fault of our generation but it sure as hell will be if we don't at least recognise the fact honestly and do something about it besides just say "Well, that was then; this is now. It was my grandpa who took a baseball bat your grandma's shins, not me, so why don't we just bygones be bygones? Why can't I say whatever I want about your grandma? You're the real hater. You won't even let me have free speech."
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  #30  
Old 07 September 2015, 02:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coughdrops View Post
Someone once told me that the "Cultural Appropriation" people are the new segregationists. And if you think about it the description fits. At best they want to divide all of humanity into separate little boxes that never interact with each other out of fear that one group might harm another. But far more often they don't want there to be a free exchange of ideas or contact between different groups of people out of some hysterical fear that the group they like will somehow be tainted by "inferior" cultures or ideas.
Coughdrops, learning from and about other cultures is in general a good thing. Imitating people from other cultures from a position of willful ignorance is very often a bad thing. They are not the same thing. It is my impression that most, if not all, people complaining about cultural appropriation are complaining about the latter, not the former. So no, I don't think the description fits at all.
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  #31  
Old 07 September 2015, 02:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganzfeld View Post
Good grief. This is someone complaining people are being too sensitive. "European racism and imperialism are real. They really happened. It was really bad." 'But what why are you blaming all of us now?!! And we aren't the only ones!... And why are you so sensitive??'
Yeah, getting really sick of defenses that can be basically summed up as #notallmen or #notallwhitepeople. Because the only way you can interpret any criticism of racism or sexism as the critic basically saying "All men suck and should die" or "All white people suck and should die..." either your reasoning/debate skills are at a level that a fifth-grader would be ashamed to have or either you're intentionally being obtuse. Neither approach is something to brag about. Either way, leave the room and let the grownups talk.

A sure sign that you're in a debate with an asshole: any usage of variations on the phrase "Why do you got to be so sensitive?" I suppose I should be charitable and acknowledge that there could be legitimate uses of that phrase, but I have yet to see one.
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  #32  
Old 07 September 2015, 04:01 AM
Coughdrops Coughdrops is offline
 
 
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The segregation exists. Denying that isn't going to solve it. The people who are against recognising the problems of appropriation are segregation denialists. This is the same reasoning that says "Well, now that we have a black president black people can do anything so there's no need for any affirmative action to undo the racism of the past four centuries." Somehow it magically disappeared when a guy from Hawaii moved to Pennsylvania Ave.

No, the results of racism and imperialism are still with us every day. It may not be the fault of our generation but it sure as hell will be if we don't at least recognise the fact honestly and do something about it besides just say "Well, that was then; this is now. It was my grandpa who took a baseball bat your grandma's shins, not me, so why don't we just bygones be bygones? Why can't I say whatever I want about your grandma? You're the real hater. You won't even let me have free speech."
And that line of thinking only leads to vendettas and blood feuds. Tell me, what are your grandmother's shins worth then? How much must I or my children, or my decedents a thousand generations down the line, pay to remove this stain on your honor? Should we let you break all of our shins? Offer our entire family as slaves to your family in perpetuity?

Yes there is racism today. Yes it's terrible. But telling white people they should hate themselves for it and that they are all guilty for it isn't going to solve anything. Only familiarity and dialogue will solve these problems. Finger-pointing and scapegoating and talk of racial guilt only makes whoever is doing it sound like a bigot with an axe to grind.


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Originally Posted by Mouse View Post
Yeah, getting really sick of defenses that can be basically summed up as #notallmen or #notallwhitepeople. Because the only way you can interpret any criticism of racism or sexism as the critic basically saying "All men suck and should die" or "All white people suck and should die..." either your reasoning/debate skills are at a level that a fifth-grader would be ashamed to have or either you're intentionally being obtuse. Neither approach is something to brag about. Either way, leave the room and let the grownups talk.

A sure sign that you're in a debate with an asshole: any usage of variations on the phrase "Why do you got to be so sensitive?" I suppose I should be charitable and acknowledge that there could be legitimate uses of that phrase, but I have yet to see one.
If dissent bothers you so much that you resort to personal attacks perhaps you shouldn't leave your echo chamber. Because you clearly cannot stand the idea of other people having ideas you did not tell them to have. Just walk away before you embarrass yourself further.
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  #33  
Old 07 September 2015, 04:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Coughdrops View Post
And that line of thinking only leads to vendettas and blood feuds.
Bull. That kind of thinking led to the modern civil rights movement, not some phoney baloney "OK we're all equal now so let's forget about the past" love in.
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But telling white people they should hate themselves for it and that they are all guilty for it isn't going to solve anything.
Name one person who has ever said this. This is just another bullcrap boogeyman invented by the people who want the status quo.
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  #34  
Old 07 September 2015, 04:16 AM
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Originally Posted by ganzfeld View Post
Name one person who has ever said this. This is just another bullcrap boogeyman invented by the people who want the status quo.
I believe many of your statements could be constructed as saying just that.

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It may not be the fault of our generation but it sure as hell will be if we don't at least recognise the fact honestly and do something about it besides just say "Well, that was then; this is now. It was my grandpa who took a baseball bat your grandma's shins, not me, so why don't we just bygones be bygones? Why can't I say whatever I want about your grandma? You're the real hater. You won't even let me have free speech."
Right there you directly say it is everyone's fault today, or will be if they don't do what you believe they should. Though you're not clear on exactly what it is they should do.

On another note, did I run over your dog or something? Because these seem to be getting a little personal.
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  #35  
Old 07 September 2015, 04:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Coughdrops View Post
I believe many of your statements could be constructed as saying just that.
Which particular ones? You know how to copy paste, I'm sure.
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Right there you directly say it is everyone's fault today, or will be if they don't do what you believe they should.
Uh-huh. And that's why I laugh out loud when you call others "sensitive". In that example, the person whose grandpa broke someone's shins doesn't have to do a darned thing. Just shut up, stop making excuses for grandpa, and don't be so sensitive (there, I said it) when the grandkids talk about what an awful thing it was. It was. Unless one is willing to do actually something decent, such as help the family of the person whose shins were broken, which I think would be even better. But I'm not holding my breath on that.
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Though you're not clear on exactly what it is they should do.
Well, the first thing is I'd like people to stop acting like criticism of cultural appropriation is in any way shape or form comparable to the racism, imperialism, and segregation that cause it to be problematic, as you did here.
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Someone once told me that the "Cultural Appropriation" people are the new segregationists. And if you think about it the description fits.
Still can't believe you said that. You really believe that criticism of arts and media even holds the tiniest candle to that roaring conflagration? Ugh.

Stop making excuses for it, as you did when you tried to imply that because Japanese imperialism existed, white/European imperialism must not have been racist. Or whatever you were trying to say. "Other people did it too" is an infantile excuse. If you think both were wrong, as you claim, why are you even saying this kind of thing?

I'm not attacking you personally at all. If you think I said something personal about you, please point it out to me. I would certainly apologise. (If it's really awful, please tell a moderator; I can take my lumps.) Everything I have said is aimed at the arguments, which I think are quite common in the US so I hardly think you're an awful person for making them.
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  #36  
Old 07 September 2015, 07:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Coughdrops View Post
If dissent bothers you so much that you resort to personal attacks perhaps you shouldn't leave your echo chamber. Because you clearly cannot stand the idea of other people having ideas you did not tell them to have. Just walk away before you embarrass yourself further.
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On another note, did I run over your dog or something? Because these seem to be getting a little personal.
Nothing ganz has said to you is even remotely as offensive as what you said to Mouse.
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  #37  
Old 07 September 2015, 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Coughdrops View Post
Tell me, what are your grandmother's shins worth then? How much must I or my children, or my decedents a thousand generations down the line, pay to remove this stain on your honor? Should we let you break all of our shins? Offer our entire family as slaves to your family in perpetuity? .
Good grief. Nobody has suggested anything of the sort.

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Originally Posted by Coughdrops View Post
Only familiarity and dialogue will solve these problems.
And how, exactly, are we supposed to have familiarity and dialogue about these problems if nobody is to be allowed to say when they think something is problematic?

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Originally Posted by Coughdrops View Post
I believe many of [ganzfeld's] statements could be constructed as saying just that.
Sure, if you twist them like pretzels. Twist hard enough, and just about any statement "could be construed" as saying just about anything.



Coughdrops, please back up a little and think about what people are actually saying: both on this thread, and those who are writing about cultural appropriation. You seem to be taking what "Someone once told [you]" and looking at everything on the subject through that lens. It's a flawed lens, and it's getting in the way of your seeing what others actually mean.
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  #38  
Old 07 September 2015, 07:10 PM
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I think 'cultural appropriation' and 'political correctness' make extremely good mates because most of the time when I hear about either of them it's from people complaining that the people who advocate such things have gone 'too far'.

How far is just far enough and who draws the line? People say things like 'Wearing bindis for fashion is just a bit of fun, it's not real cultural appropriation like wearing blackface!' which suggests the line is being drawn in really thick marker an it's always way over there. The line is never under the feet of the person who has drawn it. But if we only listen to criticism when it criticises the things we already know are definitely Bad with a capital B while immediately dismissing the criticisms of things we think are OK then we'll never change and never improve. We'll keep calling things harmless on the basis that we, personally, can't see the impact. It's amazing how much harm can be done by people who don't mean any harm.

Maybe they've gone too far, or maybe you've not gone far enough. You can argue your case, but not by telling other people that they're wrong to even complain.

I know the so-called SJWs and Tumblrinas are the worst people ever according to most of the rest of the Internet, but I really can't bring myself to be that annoyed by somebody who, at their very worst, is simply over-zealous in the pursuit of understanding progressive concepts. Sometimes it's better to err on the side of finding too much fault than to err on the side of never looking.

Oh, and I know this horse doesn't need any more flogging, but science and politics are not 'white culture'. I'm not even sure what white culture is because it has long been regarded as the base line from which to compare (or look down on) other cultures.

We tend to break down 'white culture' into various national cultures. But while misrepresenting or pilfering from those cultures is definitely rude and possibly even detrimental, at least it doesn't involve somebody from a more dominant culture using an aspect of another culture which has suffered due to actions from the dominant culture in the past. It's all well and good saying 'Let bygones be bygones' but some of the bygones haven't quite finished going by yet.
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  #39  
Old 08 September 2015, 01:04 AM
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Y'know when I offend someone without meaning to, I apologize for it, regardless of how I feel about said offense. Because it's called not being an asshole. Why is that concept so difficult to grasp?

For example, I've grown up using the words Blacks and Indians to refer to people of African-American and Native American descent. I don't see anything wrong with my terminology, but if someone were to say to me, "I find that offensive," I'd apologize and move onto something else. Because it really doesn't matter. It costs me nothing to, y'know, be a decent human being who is considerate towards the feelings of others. To paraphrase Thomas Jefferson, it neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.
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  #40  
Old 08 September 2015, 01:09 AM
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If you're being told you have to give up your livelihood (a la Izzy) then it does pick your pocket. I'm not sure we're all talking about the same thing.
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