snopes.com  

Go Back   snopes.com > Urban Legends > Religion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 22 February 2008, 08:17 PM
Grand Illusion
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Along those same lines, one of the first ULs I repeated (way before the time of Snopes and the Internet) was that if someone ate a communion wafer and then vomited, the priest had to eat the vomit.

The thing about rumors about docrtines or dogmas is that they are subjective; different people or sects or congregations believe differently. Even in the "unified" churches like the Roman Catholic Church, there are many disagreements.

Even if these rumors are proven factually false, they may be adopted de facto by somebody. I saw on TV once where a Muslim cleric debunked the 70virgins myth, but they interviewed others who were willing to go to their deaths because they believed it.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 24 February 2008, 11:05 AM
damian's Avatar
damian damian is offline
 
Join Date: 14 April 2005
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 6,504
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grand Illusion View Post
I saw on TV once where a Muslim cleric debunked the 70virgins myth...
How does one debunk a myth that would necessitate you being dead?
He actually went to Paradise after becoming a martyr and found no virgins?
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 24 February 2008, 12:31 PM
DemonWolf's Avatar
DemonWolf DemonWolf is offline
 
Join Date: 24 April 2002
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 13,114
Wolf

Quote:
Originally Posted by damian View Post
How does one debunk a myth that would necessitate you being dead?
He actually went to Paradise after becoming a martyr and found no virgins?
I beleive that he meant that the idea that Muslims beleive it was debunked.



Back to the OP - Receiving Communion is too important to the mass, liturgy, and the Catechism for it to be removed. It would be far more beleivable that the Church would require you to consume it infront of the preist and to show the preist that it was gone.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 24 February 2008, 02:12 PM
Doug4.7
 
Posts: n/a
Ponder

Quote:
Originally Posted by damian View Post
How does one debunk a myth that would necessitate you being dead?
Maybe he re-read the scriptures and realized there was a mis-interpretation of the relevant parts.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 27 February 2008, 06:54 PM
Grand Illusion
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DemonWolf View Post
I beleive that he meant that the idea that Muslims beleive it was debunked.
Yeah, that's basically what I meant.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 01 March 2008, 05:34 AM
Rabbititus Rabbititus is offline
 
Join Date: 30 December 2006
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 807
Default

When occasionally serving as an usher at church I've been told to watch the communion line. They've had to chase people down to make sure the host is consumed - and they've even found hosts stuffed in the hymnals and out in the parking lot.

I've also heard that sometimes tourists at places like the Vatican will try and keep hosts as a souvenir - dunno if that's true, but I wouldn't doubt it.

Also, while Admiraldinty kind of suggested it - the obligation to attend mass is lifted if no priest is available to say one. Some churches without priests will have "liturgy of the word" communion services, where a layman distributes hosts consecrated by a priest earlier at another church - but this isn't a mass and doesn't fulfill the Sunday obligation. The only sacraments that can be administered by laymen are Baptism and Marriage - but only in extreme circumstances like immanent death or being stranded on an island.

BTW, the destruction of churches and the ability to use them for sacraments afterward reminds me of an article I once saw in an old National Geographic from WWII. It was about the bombing of London and the high spirits of Londoners in the face of it. On one page was a wedding being held in a bombed out Catholic church. The groom was carrying his bride over the charred roof beams and splintered pews of the ruined building.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 01 March 2008, 03:22 PM
Ana Ng Ana Ng is offline
 
Join Date: 16 August 2000
Location: Babylon, NY
Posts: 14,351
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rabbititus View Post
BTW, the destruction of churches and the ability to use them for sacraments afterward reminds me of an article I once saw in an old National Geographic from WWII. It was about the bombing of London and the high spirits of Londoners in the face of it. On one page was a wedding being held in a bombed out Catholic church. The groom was carrying his bride over the charred roof beams and splintered pews of the ruined building.
Oh, my God, that's so romantic. I can't get married in the church again, though. Nor do I forsee living in a war zone. But still, a girl can dream. >sigh<
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 21 March 2008, 08:45 PM
Elkhound Elkhound is offline
 
Join Date: 09 October 2002
Location: Charleston, WV
Posts: 10,676
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Admiraldinty View Post
You're right about the Precious Blood, but some hosts are reserved in the tabernacle for later Masses. I'm nearly 100% positive that at least one host must remain in the tabernacle after a Mass (but I'd have to check the Code of Canon Law or the GIRM for about that.)
Also, some of the Reserved Sacrament is taken to those unable to come to Mass, such as those in the hospital or nursing homes or the housebound.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 23 March 2008, 10:57 PM
Victoria J
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Atlanta Jake View Post
Before a Mass, communion wafers are just that - wafers. They only become the Eucharist after they have been consecrated IIRC. Stealing unconsecrated hosts would hardly cause concern, other than concern for the thieves' souls
As already pointed out the church will often also have remaining consecrated hosts.

A friend of the family was a priest (he sadly died last year) and his church suffered a break in which included the host being stolen and "disrespected". I'm not sure it was necessarily damaged but dumped on the ground etc.

All I can remember now was that it was a huge amount of work to sort everything out. It all had to be disposed of respectfully, and a bishop came out for a service. It might have been like the story quoted here :

Quote:
Originally Posted by Admiraldinty View Post
I wish he was still alive to ask

I believe it was done by idiots who playing at being Satanists in the least imaginative way possible.

Victoria J
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 06 April 2008, 06:11 PM
Valitudinarius Rex
 
Posts: n/a
Default

OK....I'm REALLY late on this forum, but I wondered: if someone buries a consecrated communion wafer (AKA: The Body Of Christ), wouldn't it just unbury itself after three days?? Problem solved!!
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 06 April 2008, 07:54 PM
Victoria J
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valitudinarius Rex View Post
OK....I'm REALLY late on this forum, but I wondered: if someone buries a consecrated communion wafer (AKA: The Body Of Christ), wouldn't it just unbury itself after three days?? Problem solved!!


And we could sell the shroud it was wrapped in for good money.

ETA - thought about it some more. We're assuming that part of the body of Christ behaves like the whole of the body of Christ. Had he had a limb amputated while alive, and had it buried (which people have certainly been known to do in more recent times) would that have risen after 3 days ? More worryingly would it reattach ? I find the idea of a risen leg of Christ hoping around the holy land quite disturbing.

Victoria - unholy - J
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 07 April 2008, 01:01 AM
Silas Sparkhammer's Avatar
Silas Sparkhammer Silas Sparkhammer is offline
 
Join Date: 22 September 2000
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 26,843
Whalephant

Quote:
Originally Posted by Victoria J View Post
. . . We're assuming that part of the body of Christ behaves like the whole of the body of Christ. Had he had a limb amputated while alive, and had it buried (which people have certainly been known to do in more recent times) would that have risen after 3 days ? More worryingly would it reattach ? I find the idea of a risen leg of Christ hoping around the holy land quite disturbing. . . .
National Lampoon ("back when they used to be funny tm") had a cartoon where Christ's ascent into heaven was followed by the ascent of his foreskin, fingernail clippings, cut hair, mucus, bodily wastes, etc....

As stupid as it is in terms of theology, it actually is a fairly good riddle in philosophy and speculative biology: what parts of your body are "really you," and what parts are not? H.G. Wells asked this question in "The Invisible Man," when his protagonist observed partially digested food in the invisible man's stomach. By that reasoning, we would also see the chyme in his small intestine, the accumulated wastes in his large intestine, the urine in his bladder, the urine in his ureters, the material in his kidneys, the material in his liver, his hair, his dead skin cells, etc. etc. Where would it ever stop? Far from being invisible, the man would be a highly visible walking cloud of his own "non-self" material!

Silas (sorry this was kinda gross)
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 07 April 2008, 12:50 PM
Admiraldinty's Avatar
Admiraldinty Admiraldinty is offline
 
Join Date: 31 July 2004
Location: Lowell, MA
Posts: 4,774
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silas Sparkhammer View Post
As stupid as it is in terms of theology, it actually is a fairly good riddle in philosophy and speculative biology: what parts of your body are "really you," and what parts are not? H.G. Wells asked this question in "The Invisible Man," when his protagonist observed partially digested food in the invisible man's stomach. By that reasoning, we would also see the chyme in his small intestine, the accumulated wastes in his large intestine, the urine in his bladder, the urine in his ureters, the material in his kidneys, the material in his liver, his hair, his dead skin cells, etc. etc. Where would it ever stop? Far from being invisible, the man would be a highly visible walking cloud of his own "non-self" material!

Silas (sorry this was kinda gross)
I used to love questions like this, and in fact, I wrote a paper on it a few years ago: if, as Aquinas says, beings are individuated by matter, then what will happen at the Resurrection to the man who's arm has been eaten by a cannibal? Does the man get his arm back? Does it remain with the cannibal since it's been assimilated to his own body?
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 07 April 2008, 06:12 PM
Silas Sparkhammer's Avatar
Silas Sparkhammer Silas Sparkhammer is offline
 
Join Date: 22 September 2000
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 26,843
Whalephant

Quote:
Originally Posted by Admiraldinty View Post
I used to love questions like this, and in fact, I wrote a paper on it a few years ago: if, as Aquinas says, beings are individuated by matter, then what will happen at the Resurrection to the man who's arm has been eaten by a cannibal? Does the man get his arm back? Does it remain with the cannibal since it's been assimilated to his own body?
Since we all share matter -- there are, right now, several trillion molecules of water in your body which once were part of Julius Caesar's body! -- the miracle of resurrection had best involve duplication of matter. As with the loaves and fishes, so with the water molecules, carbon atoms, etc. of our bodies.

(It might be possible simply to re-arrange the matter existing on the earth at the moment of resurrection. There is probably enough ordinary water, carbon, etc. So, since the cannibal has the carbon from my arm, I get fresh new parts from an ocean, a coal mine, a thicket of oaks, etc.)

The Bible seems to imply that "last come, first served," in that our bones will rise from our graves, so that our remains which are still recognizeable will be the first-used material for our reconstitution. But that's mere parsimony. God doesn't have to be thrifty of resources, but it is still good sense. (Just as a mortal craftsman re-uses wrought-iron, say, when making ornamental grillework, rather than obtaining entirely new stock.)

Silas ("Sir, you have my arm incorporated in your physique; would you mind terribly returning it?")
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 07 April 2008, 09:34 PM
Victoria J
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Hmm, I have a resurrection question. Belief in a physical and literal resurrection was common with people who also believed that suffering in this world would not only end in the next life, but would actually in some way help you prepare for it. (And at a time with wholly negative ideas about the capabilities of those with disabilities).

What happens to those whose bodies cause the suffering ?

I can see that you could believe that someone might be raised in their old body but with working legs - but what if they had never had any legs ? Could you be taller or shorter ? The very short and very tall have many related health problems. How different and more perfect could you be and still physically be you ?

Victoria J
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 07 April 2008, 09:39 PM
Chloe's Avatar
Chloe Chloe is offline
 
Join Date: 13 September 2004
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 39,316
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Admiraldinty View Post
I used to love questions like this, and in fact, I wrote a paper on it a few years ago: if, as Aquinas says, beings are individuated by matter, then what will happen at the Resurrection to the man who's arm has been eaten by a cannibal? Does the man get his arm back? Does it remain with the cannibal since it's been assimilated to his own body?
I hope you got to read Caroline Bynum's book on just those sorts of fun things.

Hey, just looked you up in the Kalamazoo program--they stuck you with the 8:30 Sunday session! That's a bit rotten!
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 07 April 2008, 09:46 PM
Admiraldinty's Avatar
Admiraldinty Admiraldinty is offline
 
Join Date: 31 July 2004
Location: Lowell, MA
Posts: 4,774
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chloe View Post
I hope you got to read Caroline Bynum's book on just those sorts of fun things.

Hey, just looked you up in the Kalamazoo program--they stuck you with the 8:30 Sunday session! That's a bit rotten!
I'm guessing you mean the one about blood? I haven't gotten to that one yet (although I have read some of Bynum's other stuff.) At the time I wrote the paper, I was reading stuff by Amy Hollywood and others.

Yeah, I wasn't thrilled about the scheduling. The thing that really stinks is the rest of the BC contingent won't be able to see me give my paper. They're either leaving before Sunday or giving their papers at the same time. I'm only staying for a couple of days. I'm arriving Friday afternoon and leaving shortly after I give the paper.

I have absolutely no idea what to expect, but given the subject matter of the other papers in my session, I'm not expecting many technical (or even theological) questions.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 07 April 2008, 09:52 PM
Chloe's Avatar
Chloe Chloe is offline
 
Join Date: 13 September 2004
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 39,316
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Admiraldinty View Post
I'm guessing you mean the one about blood? I haven't gotten to that one yet (although I have read some of Bynum's other stuff.) At the time I wrote the paper, I was reading stuff by Amy Hollywood and others.
I mean this one: http://www.amazon.com/Resurrection-B.../dp/0231081278. Lots of juicy stuff!

Quote:
Yeah, I wasn't thrilled about the scheduling. The thing that really stinks is the rest of the BC contingent won't be able to see me give my paper. They're either leaving before Sunday or giving their papers at the same time. I'm only staying for a couple of days. I'm arriving Friday afternoon and leaving shortly after I give the paper.

I have absolutely no idea what to expect, but given the subject matter of the other papers in my session, I'm not expecting many technical (or even theological) questions.
That does suck. If you want some general advice about fielding questions etc., you've got my email address.

Last edited by Chloe; 07 April 2008 at 10:08 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 07 April 2008, 10:02 PM
Silas Sparkhammer's Avatar
Silas Sparkhammer Silas Sparkhammer is offline
 
Join Date: 22 September 2000
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 26,843
Whalephant

Quote:
Originally Posted by Victoria J View Post
Hmm, I have a resurrection question. Belief in a physical and literal resurrection was common with people who also believed that suffering in this world would not only end in the next life, but would actually in some way help you prepare for it. (And at a time with wholly negative ideas about the capabilities of those with disabilities).

What happens to those whose bodies cause the suffering ?

I can see that you could believe that someone might be raised in their old body but with working legs - but what if they had never had any legs ? Could you be taller or shorter ? The very short and very tall have many related health problems. How different and more perfect could you be and still physically be you ?
At least one version of the general resurrection holds that we will all be raised as we were at the age of 33 -- Jesus' age at crucifixion. Old people will be young again...and the very young will have grown up to their adult bodies.

(I never heard anything about their minds, but I guess that's implicit. Otherwise, you'd have little babies in the bodies of 33-year-old adults, and that would be farcical.)

It isn't too much of a stretch to presume that the bodies will be "perfect." They will be the bodies we might have had if Adam and Eve had not sinned. Again, not all theologians hold this view (by a long shot!) but some have said that disability and disease entered the world when sin did.

(It is even a view held by some that the animals in Eden were all herbivores, and that lions didn't start eating gazelle's until human sin brought chaos to God's order. Mark Twain made sport of this view, and it is around even to this day.)

Ask a hundred theologians and you'll get a hundred and ninety nine answers...

Silas
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 07:31 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.