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  #21  
Old 22 June 2015, 09:57 PM
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Dr. Winston O'Boogie Dr. Winston O'Boogie is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geminilee View Post
The flag stood for heritage, not hate,
Am I the only one who sees the flag as representing treason - groups fighting against the legitimate government of the United States of America? For that reason alone, shouldn't the Confederate Battle Flag be banned? Or, shouldn't these good ol' Patriotic 'Merikans be hating the flag for the treason it represents?
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  #22  
Old 22 June 2015, 10:11 PM
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It ain't treason if it is against Yankees.
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  #23  
Old 22 June 2015, 10:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geminilee View Post
There is also more than one way/place to be taught things. School kind of minimized the issues, or gave mostly the standard current explanation quickly, holding its nose like it was taking medicine.

No, I got the argument from just about every good ol' boy with a Confederate flag on their truck, so most of them. I was taught it from many sources. The flag stood for heritage, not hate, but it was everywhere in my still-segregated-in-the-90s town.
Yep. We didn't study the Civil War until 8th or 9th grade. Even then, not much time was spent on causes vs big events, and I'd already had the groundwork laid that the history books didn't tell the whole/true story.
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  #24  
Old 22 June 2015, 10:37 PM
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Originally Posted by snopes View Post
MYTH – The War of 1861 – 1865 was fought over slavery.

FACT – Terribly untrue. The North fought the war over money. Plain and
simple. When the South started Secession, Lincoln was asked, “Why not let
the South go in peace?” To which he replied, “I can’t let them go. Who
would pay for the government?” Sensing total financial ruin for the North,
Lincoln waged war on the South. The South fought the War to repel Northern
aggression and invasion.
Oh, forgot to mention the other part that's BS about this.

The Confederacy declared war on the Union and attacked, invading all the way to Pennsylvania. "War of Northern Aggression" is just crying about how the other side hit back harder after the you threw a sucker punch.
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  #25  
Old 22 June 2015, 11:08 PM
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Treason, yep, but I'm not sure that even makes the top three most shameful things it represents, including white supremacy, slavery and segregation, terrorism, and that idiotic Dixie horn.
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  #26  
Old 22 June 2015, 11:47 PM
fitz1980 fitz1980 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Winston O'Boogie View Post
Or, shouldn't these good ol' Patriotic 'Merikans be hating the flag for the treason it represents?
It's only treason if a liberal says something offensive about conservative policies; such as saying that Bush lied to get us into Iraq. In which case you are a traitor who should be arrested.

If you are stockpiling AK-47s to attempt a "Second Amendment solution" should Obama pass universal healthcare, or open up FEMA concentration camps than you are just a good old patriotic American.
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  #27  
Old 23 June 2015, 12:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Winston O'Boogie View Post
Am I the only one who sees the flag as representing treason - groups fighting against the legitimate government of the United States of America? For that reason alone, shouldn't the Confederate Battle Flag be banned? Or, shouldn't these good ol' Patriotic 'Merikans be hating the flag for the treason it represents?
I have always felt this way...the Confederacy was a bunch of treasonous traitors, and who in their right mind today would want to be associated with that? Most people I've encountered who fly or display the flag never think of it that way, though--it's always about some sort of "heritage" nonsense with a "Gone with the Wind" romanticism about the antebellum south. They often also fly the US flag proudly with no trace of irony because they're "patriotic"...sorry, but you can't be patriotic for the US while also glorifying the flag of traitors. (I sound like an ultra patriot here, when I'm nothing of the sort...it has just always annoyed me the various excuses that have been used to justify the use of a flag that should have been forgotten about 150 years ago.)
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  #28  
Old 23 June 2015, 12:03 AM
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To me, it suggests that their reasons for revering the Confederate flag actually have nothing to do with patriotism.
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  #29  
Old 23 June 2015, 01:26 AM
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It's patriotic to the fascist dictatorship you intend to install once you've gotten around to overthrowing the current government.
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  #30  
Old 23 June 2015, 02:11 AM
Nick Theodorakis Nick Theodorakis is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lainie View Post
To me, it suggests that their reasons for revering the Confederate flag actually have nothing to do with patriotism.
I wonder if people who revere the Confederate flag can say the Pledge of Allegiance unironically?
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  #31  
Old 23 June 2015, 04:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hapax Legomena View Post
They often also fly the US flag proudly with no trace of irony because they're "patriotic"...sorry, but you can't be patriotic for the US while also glorifying the flag of traitors.
Technically, they are both the flags of traitors, one successful, one not.
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  #32  
Old 23 June 2015, 05:11 AM
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Fair point GenYus, but it is the winners of wars who get to write the history books, and so get more chance to put their own spin on things.
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  #33  
Old 23 June 2015, 05:26 AM
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Given the way the South carries on, you'd think they'd won the war.
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  #34  
Old 23 June 2015, 05:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geminilee View Post
Fair point GenYus, but it is the winners of wars who get to write the history books, and so get more chance to put their own spin on things.
But that's not really accurate, is it? Sometimes the Losers can put as much spin as they want. Sometimes a free press enables them. Sometimes the people in power use or at least allow the Loser version. Sometimes Losers write history books and textbooks as well.

With all the BS that every country teaches their children about WWII, I have to wonder if winning or losing makes much of a difference.

Plus, isn't this the excuse that we hear for Losers making up this kind of screed? "You only get the story from the winner's point of view so we have to tell you the truth."
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  #35  
Old 23 June 2015, 06:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hapax Legomena View Post
the Confederacy was a bunch of treasonous traitors, and who in their right mind today would want to be associated with that?
So were the American revolutionaries, and we revere them.
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  #36  
Old 23 June 2015, 09:02 AM
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  #37  
Old 23 June 2015, 01:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snopes View Post
So were the American revolutionaries, and we revere them.
Sure, because they won that one.
I don't see anybody flying the Union Jack, pining for a return to Royalist ways, but that's a slightly different situation. Oddly enough, about the first thing I saw when I turned on my computer this morning was this piece which says about the same thing I did, only somewhat longer and in greater detail and certainly a lot more passion for the subject:

Quote:
I hate Gone With the Wind. I hate everything about it. I hate its portrayal of the Civil War. I hate its portrayal of Southern aristocrats. I hate its popularity. I hate that it's become an iconic movie. I hate that it was ever made in the first place.

Gone With the Wind is Birth of a Nation with less horses.
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  #38  
Old 23 June 2015, 03:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snopes View Post
History books, the media, the school systems, etc abound in falsehoods and
inaccuracies of Confederate and Southern history. This fact sheet will
help to clarify and dispel some of these rampant inaccuracies.

MYTH – The War of 1861 – 1865 was fought over slavery.

FACT – Terribly untrue. The North fought the war over money. Plain and
simple. When the South started Secession, Lincoln was asked, “Why not let
the South go in peace?” To which he replied, “I can’t let them go. Who
would pay for the government?” Sensing total financial ruin for the North,
Lincoln waged war on the South. The South fought the War to repel Northern
aggression and invasion.
This, of course, is the most pernicious myth. The South seceded because of slavery. This isn't supposition: They specifically said this was the reason.

South Carolina -- who seceded first -- put out their "Declaration of the Immediate Causes Which Induce and Justify the Secession of South Carolina from the Federal Union." They considered this to be the equivalent of the Declaration of Independence, a documents justifying their actions, and one that would be taught in schools for generations.

Some quotes:
Quote:
But an increasing hostility on the part of the non-slaveholding States to the institution of slavery, has led to a disregard of their obligations, and the laws of the General Government have ceased to effect the objects of the Constitution.
Quote:
The right of property in slaves was recognized by giving to free persons distinct political rights, by giving them the right to represent, and burthening them with direct taxes for three-fifths of their slaves; by authorizing the importation of slaves for twenty years; and by stipulating for the rendition of fugitives from labor.
Quote:
A geographical line has been drawn across the Union, and all the States north of that line have united in the election of a man to the high office of President of the United States, whose opinions and purposes are hostile to slavery. He is to be entrusted with the administration of the common Government, because he has declared that that "Government cannot endure permanently half slave, half free," and that the public mind must rest in the belief that slavery is in the course of ultimate extinction.
As for states' rights, the Declaration specifically complains about states that are asserting their rights by freeing any slave in their territory, and the Federal Government has not stopped them -- so it's against states' rights (and the law they were complaining that the Feds weren't enforcing was the Fugitive Slave Law).
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  #39  
Old 23 June 2015, 05:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snopes View Post
So were the American revolutionaries, and we revere them.
I think the goals of the revolution, and the aftermath, probably has something to do with the difference between the Revolutionary War and the Civil War.
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  #40  
Old 23 June 2015, 06:16 PM
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Which doesn't really mean anything since each side has a set of goals that they thing are worthy and proper. The OP demonstrates exactly that.
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