Prom Dress That Caused a Furor in U.S. Draws Head-Scratching in China

[Steve]

Originally Posted by St. Alia

You've come in, dismissed the entire concept of cultural appropriation with an "ahem", changed the subject to cyberbullying, and then misrepresented my comment to strawman me...

I did not change the subject to cyberbullying. That was brought up before I came here. Nor did I strawman you. I quoted you.

[Little Pink Pill]

RichardM changed the subject to bullying, rather randomly considering the flow of conversation (posts 56-58).

[St. Alia]

Originally Posted by Steve

A fair point. I mean, I disagree with a lot that's been said on this thread, but I read people's posts and don't just tell them that their opinion isn't needed or wanted. And I'm sure you're open-minded enough to agree with that.

Oh.

I didn't tell anyone their opinion wasn't wanted or needed. So yes, strawman.

And you're right. The cyberbully thing was brought up before you joined in on it. I apologize for saying you changed the subject.

[Steve]

Originally Posted by Little Pink Pill

Richard W changed the subject to bullying, rather randomly considering the flow of conversation (posts 56-58).

Since I'm a stickler for details, it was RichardM, not Richard W.

[Little Pink Pill]

You’re right! Sorry, edited!

[ganzfeld]

Originally Posted by RichardM

Unless the clothing is religious in nature, I see no problem wearing the styles of another culture.

Aside from the other issues already mentioned, why should religious styles get special consideration? I think this is just recognizing the problem but limiting it to cases where you personally can relate to it. For some people, cultural things are just as personally important as their religion.

[thorny locust]

For some people, the cultural and the religious aren't separable.


And, FWIW, I didn't take

Empathy, worldview, ability to see the experiences of those around you, ability to actually comprehend that your lived experiences are not the same of those of a different gender, color, culture, ethnicity, etc... is vital to be able to move forward in this world. Or at least know when your opinion isn't needed or wanted.

to mean that anyone's opinion wasn't wanted in this thread; only to mean that there are circumstances in the society as a whole in which not everyone's opinion is applicable.

[RichardM]

ganzfield you are assuming I am religious.

Yes, I was the one who introduced the topic of cyber bullying. That is because people are not are not understanding what I mean. It is wrong to criticize someone for wearing a popular dress of another culture. I do make an exception if that garb is of religious nature. That is because in many cultures, religious garb is earned. Not every one of that culture may wear that garb. Another example is the wearing of military uniforms, especially with medals, by those who do not deserve them.

[RichardM]

erwins, you asked what the term "melting pot" had to do with this. Here is a quote taken from that unvarying source of truth, Wiki -

"The melting-together metaphor was in use by the 1780s. The exact term "melting pot" came into general usage in the United States after it was used as a metaphor describing a fusion of nationalities, cultures and ethnicities in the 1908 play of the same name.
Melting pot - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melting_pot"

I remember it from grade school history classes in the 50s.

[St. Alia]

Originally Posted by RichardM

Our "American" culture is primarily northern European with the strongest influence being English. But America is supposed to be a melting pot of culture. Why can't others contribute? Unless the clothing is religious in nature, I see no problem wearing the styles of another culture.

There are a number of claims there, but I'll push back on the melting pot claim. I don't think anyone was using the "melting pot" concept even by the 80's when I was little and first being taught social studies in school.

http://www.newsweek.com/immigration-...ing-pot-408705

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salad_...cultural_idea)

And add in an article on why cultural appropriation is something to learn about and consider the viewpoints of those who are affected:
https://www.bustle.com/p/7-things-yo...that-are-60679

*I've read better articles, but I found that one first and it wasn't bad. If I find some of the others I've read before I'll link them.

[St. Alia]

**Too late to edit, but I wanted to clarify that I meant that no one was teaching the melting pot idea in the schools I attended. Not that no one did so anywhere.

As a teacher, I know that the way we have our localized systems set up that there are likely teachers out there who have taught exactly the same way since they started teaching still out there right now.

So there were likely teachers who taught that America is a melting pot in the 80's... and there are probably teachers who were taught that in the 50's who repeat that to their students today.

[RichardM]

Sorry, in the 80s, I was married for the 2nd time, working on advancing my career etc. So I don't know what is being taught now or then. I posted the description of the "melting pot" assuming it wasn't being taught after I left school.

No our society is not homogeneous. It probably would be much duller if it were.

But part of our society has been a melting pot for northern Europeans, even in the recent past. In 1948, my parents entered into a "mixed" marriage. My mother's family is Norwegian, my father's German. I even heard that a person of African descent can even marry a "white" person now. (That is meant as sarcasm lest someone now start to claim I am racist.) In his book "Hawaii", James Michener has one of the characters comment that when every one is light tan the world will be a better place. Or words to that effect. It is taking time but our world, not just the US, is assimilating each other. I don't see that as a bad thing. I see the complaints about "culture appropriation" as a proclamation that one culture is better than another.

[Beachlife!]

The term Melting Pot was used in one of the America theme'd episodes of School House Rock which ran until 1985. I graduated from High School in the mid-80s and it was the term used throughout my schooling.

[Little Pink Pill]

Originally Posted by RichardM

Yes, I was the one who introduced the topic of cyber bullying. That is because people are not are not understanding what I mean.

If you mean that while you were arguing about being white and discriminated against for wearing greasy clothes, you were really just objecting to the OP girl being bullied, then I think you’re right. No one was understanding what you meant.

[NobleHunter]

Originally Posted by RichardM

Sorry, in the 80s, I was married for the 2nd time, working on advancing my career etc. So I don't know what is being taught now or then. I posted the description of the "melting pot" assuming it wasn't being taught after I left school.

No our society is not homogeneous. It probably would be much duller if it were.

But part of our society has been a melting pot for northern Europeans, even in the recent past. In 1948, my parents entered into a "mixed" marriage. My mother's family is Norwegian, my father's German. I even heard that a person of African descent can even marry a "white" person now. (That is meant as sarcasm lest someone now start to claim I am racist.) In his book "Hawaii", James Michener has one of the characters comment that when every one is light tan the world will be a better place. Or words to that effect. It is taking time but our world, not just the US, is assimilating each other. I don't see that as a bad thing. I see the complaints about "culture appropriation" as a proclamation that one culture is better than another.

Well, some cultures believe they have the right to invade other people's lands, take whatever they want and re-purpose people's cultural artifacts to reinforce their stereotypes and prejudices about those people, often while trying to wipe out the culture they invaded. Other cultures believe they should be able to do whatever they want with other people's cultural artifacts without regard to how the creators feel about it. Some are really big into stealing and exploiting from other cultures so they can profit without needing to fairly compensate the people doing the real work. Are those cultures worse than others? Maybe, maybe not.

[St. Alia]

Originally Posted by RichardM

In his book "Hawaii", James Michener has one of the characters comment that when every one is light tan the world will be a better place. Or words to that effect. It is taking time but our world, not just the US, is assimilating each other. I don't see that as a bad thing. I see the complaints about "culture appropriation" as a proclamation that one culture is better than another.

Why would everyone being a light tan make the world a better place?

And could you expand on your last sentence? I don't understand what you are saying. Who is making the complaints? Those who don't understand what cultural appropriation is or those who are explaining that people should be cautious of doing so?

[Steve]

Originally Posted by NobleHunter

Well, some cultures believe they have the right to invade other people's lands, take whatever they want and re-purpose people's cultural artifacts to reinforce their stereotypes and prejudices about those people, often while trying to wipe out the culture they invaded. Other cultures believe they should be able to do whatever they want with other people's cultural artifacts without regard to how the creators feel about it. Some are really big into stealing and exploiting from other cultures so they can profit without needing to fairly compensate the people doing the real work. Are those cultures worse than others? Maybe, maybe not.

Yep, but mentioning cyber bullying was the random part of this conversation.

[RichardM]

Steve, no it was not random. It was to intensify my disagreement with those who think a white woman can't wear a Japanese style dress.

St. Alia, the idea as posited by James Michener was that if we were all alike, all of the same tribe as it were, we wouldn't fight. The mayor of New Orleans was castigated by some for saying much the same. He was interpreted as saying people of African descent were going to be living in New Orleans.

[thorny locust]

Originally Posted by RichardM

the idea as posited by James Michener was that if we were all alike, all of the same tribe as it were, we wouldn't fight. .

General historical and contemporary evidence seems to show that we'd simply come up with a different set of dividing lines and fight over those. Where everybody's European Christian, Christianity splits into different sects of European Christians, which argue with and sometimes kill each other. Etcetera.

At least, unless you're positing that we all somehow become identical clones with exactly the same life experiences. I doubt this is possible and I think it would be a very bad idea if it were possible. (Not to mention horribly boring.)

The trick as I see it is not to somehow try to make everybody identical and/or all cultural items and ideas interchangeable; but how to learn to live with different people without killing each other over it. This has been accomplished in various places from time to time. I think we're more likely to pull off doing it more often, in more places, and for longer stretches of time if we acknowledge differences, take them seriously, and talk about them than if we try to make them disappear.

ETA: and I don't think anyone here has said that "a white woman can't wear a Japanese style dress". Some of us have said that wearing clothing of other cultures than one's own would be better done after considering the implications and the specific circumstances of doing so. That's not at all the same thing.

[RichardM]

Originally Posted by St. Alia

Why would everyone being a light tan make the world a better place?

And could you expand on your last sentence? I don't understand what you are saying. Who is making the complaints? Those who don't understand what cultural appropriation is or those who are explaining that people should be cautious of doing so?

I really don't care what the motivation of those who call out "cultural appropriation" at the slightest hint. Cultural appropriation has been claimed against those who have learned to cook food from another country. If I go to Greece and work in a restaurant, am I not allowed to bring those recipes back to the US? According to some, I am not. If I dress as a Navajo singer and claim to do sand paintings, then yes, I am. And by the way, I have no idea how a Navajo singer dresses. All my information of them comes from Tony Hillerman books. I have visited a few pueblos here but try not to act like a tourist from New York city. (yes that is a generalization and not applicable to all the people of New York City especially the Norwegian ones.)