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  #81  
Old 22 November 2013, 03:53 PM
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On an aside, it was reported on my early morning commuting news that some stores in Wisconsin are already seeing people setting up camp for Black Friday. However, Black Friday is not for another week.

Imagine that. Camping for eight days/nights and missing Thanksgiving in the house altogether for some sales. Wow.
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  #82  
Old 22 November 2013, 03:55 PM
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We don't know what, if anything, they're missing.
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  #83  
Old 22 November 2013, 03:59 PM
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I am more amazed that someone can, presumably, take that much time off work to commit to living outside a Best Buy for a week. No bathrooms. No heat (unless portable heaters used). It is one heck of a commitment.
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  #84  
Old 22 November 2013, 04:15 PM
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Yea.. I mean I guess plenty of people are unemployed, and those people probably need sales more than anybody I suppose, but it still seems an insane use of one's time. I suppose you could rotate.. Not sure how that would sit with other line waiters.

Maybe it's a disease, similar to hording or whatever, where it doesn't make sense to those looking in because it's a product of a sick mind..

Either way, given that most predictions I've read say this years sales will be.. Minimal.. Compared to other years it seems like a poor decision to camp out at all, much less a week ahead of time, for the chance of getting a good price on something.


To the main topic.. It does appear like both sides (both here and elsewhere) don't encourage the government getting involved and feel the store should make the choice but those who are opposed to it are advocating for people to skip out. I guess it could feel like nagging, depending on whom is doing the talking/typing, but really it could be one of those things people just don't think about. The store is open, why not shop? When really you are helping to support something you may not agree with (Sort of like all those people who rally against Walmart but shop there anyway).

Personally I wouldn't ever go to a black friday sale, I find the idea of being around that many people rushing around to be unpleasent enough of it's own without getting social issues involved. I'll stick to cyber monday, the savers are (presumably) not as good but I can hit more stores easier and I don't have to run the risk of dying, or at the very least of getting up ridiculously early in the morning (if not days in advance) and hanging out in the cold around angry, crazy people.
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  #85  
Old 22 November 2013, 04:30 PM
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Two years ago I shopped for groceries on Thanksgiving morning. I was leaving town to spend the long weekend caring for my mother, but first I needed to buy some cat food and stuff. I didn't do it the night before because the weather was crappy and traffic was bad I'd had a hard enough time getting home from work, plus I had to do laundry and pack.

If someone had told me that day that I shouldn't be shopping on Thanksgiving, or worse that I was "part of the problem," I probably would have told them to stuff it.

ETA: I realize that's not the kind of shopping most people in this thread are talking about, but the distinction isn't always made very clearly, and I'm frankly not sure there is a bright line. My brother might have taken advantage of his day off work and caregiving to hit some sales and heard the same comments.
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  #86  
Old 22 November 2013, 04:37 PM
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Keep in mind you'd be doing 'black friday' style shopping though.. I mean I can't speak for you or your financial situation but I'd buy cat food in a 7/11 or emergency vets office or basically anywhere before I braved the typical black friday crowd.


Also, maybe it's just around here, but many if not most stores are typically open on thanksgiving, just that they close early (for people who forgot some random ingredient or decoration or whatever). I assume the main issue is them staying open during the actual 'holiday' part itself (while I guess everybody is different, I suspect for most it 'starts' in mid to late afternoon by which point most retail stores are typically closed).

So unless the mandatory shopping (again at a typical big box store) has to be done during thanksgiving afternoon/evening it shouldn't really be a major impact, and if it was you'd be competing with people looking to save 50% on a blue ray player and willing to risk inadvertently killing somebody over it, or being killed.
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  #87  
Old 22 November 2013, 04:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lainie View Post
I have a friend for whom Black Friday shopping is an annual family activity with her sister and their mother, who lives in Wisconsin. They shop early in the morning and then go out for breakfast together.
My Ex used to do this with her sister and mother. It was a big thing for them, they would usually buy silly hats to wear just for the occasion.
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  #88  
Old 22 November 2013, 04:40 PM
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Yeah, I get that, but see my ETA.

If my brother had decided to take advantage of a rare day off from both work and caregiving, and hit up some sales to grab some bargains, would he have been "part of the problem"?

It's one thing to urge people to mindful, but tossing out judgmental phrases like that when we don't know people's individual situations seems unnecessary and unkind. ETA: And ironically, less than mindful.
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  #89  
Old 22 November 2013, 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Mickey Blue View Post
I guess I am one of the people who doesn't see what all the fuss is about.. I mean ok if it was a holiday like Christmas or Halloween (if you have kids at least) where the actual day is really important either socially, culturally or spiritually I may get it but if you are working on Thanksgiving (whether it be in an ER, on a military base somewhere, or in a Walmart) why not just celebrate the following Saturday or Sunday or the preceding Saturday or Sunday?
Thanksgiving is important socially, culturally, and/or spiritually for a lot of people (like many others here, it's probably the second most important holiday of the year for me, next to Christmas), and it's not always so easy to celebrate at a different time. The biggest thing about Thanksgiving for me (and I suspect many others) is a large family gathering, and that's something that's not easy to coordinate if people have different schedules. Part of what makes it possible is that most people have this one day off (and a long enough holiday to travel as well).

If I had to work on Thanksgiving, I could still make my own little celebratory dinner or whatever some other day. But I wouldn't be able to participate in the big family gathering that is, to me, the heart of Thanksgiving.
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  #90  
Old 22 November 2013, 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Mickey Blue View Post
I guess I am one of the people who doesn't see what all the fuss is about.. I mean ok if it was a holiday like Christmas or Halloween (if you have kids at least) where the actual day is really important either socially, culturally or spiritually I may get it but if you are working on Thanksgiving (whether it be in an ER, on a military base somewhere, or in a Walmart) why not just celebrate the following Saturday or Sunday or the preceding Saturday or Sunday?
I can see how the actual day of Hallowe'en would be important as Trick-or-Treating usually involves the community, but how is Christmas' actual day more significant that Thanksgiving's actual day? I think pretty much everyone is aware that Christmas is not the actual day that Jesus was born (not to mention the fact that many families celebrate Christmas a lot more than they celebrate the birth of Christ*). At least in our family, we often spread Christmas out to several days after the actual day anyway.

ETA: * I hope that makes sense. What I mean to say is that they celebrate many of the secular traditions of Christmas and the sense of joy and giving more than the religious commemoration of the birth of Christ.
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  #91  
Old 22 November 2013, 07:04 PM
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For kids, Santa comes Christmas morning, you could I guess say "he's hitting our house early or late" but I can see why parents may not want to do that. The dinner/visiting part of it you could, of course, do at any time.

Once you are taking about adults I agree that the specific day celebrating Christmas isn't that big a deal.. Saving maybe for religious people who attend services (wouldn't know) but then religious people get more than enough special rights as it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jahungo View Post
Thanksgiving is important socially, culturally, and/or spiritually for a lot of people (like many others here, it's probably the second most important holiday of the year for me, next to Christmas), and it's not always so easy to celebrate at a different time. The biggest thing about Thanksgiving for me (and I suspect many others) is a large family gathering, and that's something that's not easy to coordinate if people have different schedules. Part of what makes it possible is that most people have this one day off (and a long enough holiday to travel as well).

If I had to work on Thanksgiving, I could still make my own little celebratory dinner or whatever some other day. But I wouldn't be able to participate in the big family gathering that is, to me, the heart of Thanksgiving.
I guess if it's a big enough family that's true (though odds are in a big enough family somebody works in one of those jobs that isn't given the day off typically) but for smaller events I would think that you could all just agree to have it that Sunday (or whatever other day works).

It's not that I get the complaint, just that I don't see it as a big deal, but as noted we are all different. Personally, I'd prefer more people have time off than not because most people would prefer not to work than work.. However it's simply not something I feel that concerned about and, as noted by myself and a few others, I suspect that's just cause I'm so used to the idea. It's not like I have the attitude of "I have to work so so does everybody else!", just that I've made my peace with the idea long ago so it's just not something that raises my hackles.. I suspect if I worked in retail and found my days off were about to change for the worse I would be much more upset.

Last edited by Mickey Blue; 22 November 2013 at 07:15 PM.
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  #92  
Old 22 November 2013, 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted by ganzfeld View Post
I think you're taking my comments way way out of context and meaning, as usual Hero. You bring up the whole issue of secular vs not, among other things I've never mentioned. (Sometimes I wonder if you actually read the threads or just imagine what you want to.) You even bring up Japan again, as if it has anything to do with anything. Are you really interested in how things are here as a matter of comparison or are you just trying to make more irrelevant points? I mean straw men are one thing but you've got like animated straw humanoids with lasers and bad breath.
You are the one who has referred to Thanksgiving as a "sacred cow", not me. You are the one who tells us that we need to get over that whole "holidays are for spending time with family" because work prevents people from seeing their families each and every day.

I make mention of Japan because they have even more national holidays than the US, and you live in that country. Do you protest against those holidays as much as you protest against these? Or can you not sympathize with people in those jobs where, by whim, people have to work on a holiday that used to be - even in recent memory - pretty universal. I don't know if the celebration in Japan includes a cessation of commerce or manufacturing production, or even retail sales, but there are lots of those holidays, and my guess is that they are paid for full-time workers. But the point here is that people are saying that a holiday should be a holiday - a more universal day off for all but the most "essential" occupations - and that retail sales are *not* essential.

Quote:
All I'm saying is that businesses are capable of making a good decision whether they want to be open for business on a holiday or not. The similarity with blue laws, as I see it, is that it's another case where businesses should be allowed to decide for themselves. Now, some have pointed out that no one wants to make it illegal but I think if (g)you have a complaint about this thing other than making it illegal then you vote with your wallet. Complaints are always welcome but they have to be backed up with more than just "this is the way I like it".
Businesses can't be trusted to make decisions that are good for anyone but their owners or shareholders. If not for labour laws, we may still have children sorting coal or performing other dangerous work, as long as it was profitable. (You may argue that a modern social conscience, such as the objection to textile sweat shops, could also stop this, but businesses would still try it. But even with those social issues at hand, the public still votes with their wallet. Consumders know, by and large, that the workers at Wal-Mart get the short end of the stick, and that the company's business practices hurt local business and domestic manufacturing, but they still shop their because their money is worth more than their pride.

The issue of mandated holidays is for the "greater good", and if you believe that something like that exists, then you understand the need to make it universal. The one business which remains open, while all others voluntarily close, would be very profitable, (at least until it had competition), rather than be shunned. Thus the need for regulation.

Quote:
I'm not arguing it should be one way because I like it. I'm just saying people with businesses should be able to make decisions about which days and hours they do business as long as people aren't being overworked and underpaid.
But they are being taken advantage of - we both know that to be true. Retail workers don't have much recourse when their work is already part-time, without benefits, without pensions, without a regular schedule, without opportunity for advancement, and in many cases, a very stressful, if not hostile, work environment. The practices of those businesses which employ them have worked very well to keep them from organizing in unions, and the dominance of just a few large retailers (with significant financial and political influence) is enough to keep it that way.

Do you really, honestly think that such unrestricted capitalism is going to benefit the "greater good"?
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  #93  
Old 22 November 2013, 08:13 PM
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..the greater good..
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  #94  
Old 22 November 2013, 08:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Credence View Post
Your interpretation of what I said is wrong. I did not say that other people should have to work on the holiday. I said that I think that businesses should have the option to open.
OK. That isn't the part of your post I was challenging, though; which is why I quoted the part I was challenging.

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Originally Posted by Darth Credence View Post
What's your point here? I brought up what I think would be most helpful, but also say that I think it would be well nigh impossible to get that change through. I didn't say we shouldn't try, and I regularly write to my Representatives in support of an increased safety net - it's close to pointless, and it has unfortunately put me on Sen. Mike Lee's mailing list, but I do it.
My point was that being unable to guarantee everyone an excellent safety net doesn't mean that nobody should try to improve other parts of the situation that people without a safety net are trying to deal with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickey Blue View Post
if you are working on Thanksgiving (whether it be in an ER, on a military base somewhere, or in a Walmart) why not just celebrate the following Saturday or Sunday or the preceding Saturday or Sunday?
For many people: because others in the group with whom they wanted to be able to celebrate Thanksgiving won't be able to simultaneously get that day off.

As has been pointed out before in this thread, the problem is coming up with a day on which as many people as possible can all gather together at once.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hero_Mike View Post
It is worth mentioning, perhaps again, that not all people who "need" the service industry during holidays are doing so because they are protesting the holidays or, for lack of a better word, have much of a choice.

The biggest part of this is people who are travelling for business [ . . . ]These people need hotels, restaurants, transportation, gas stations, and so on. [ . . . ] People may want to visit their non-local friends relatives for the holidays, which requires transportation and hotels, since not everyone can have houseguests (or wants to be a houseguest).
I'm not sure how many times it needs to be stated in this thread by how many people, but I'll say it again: nobody is talking about shutting down every gas station, hotel, and restaurant in the country. I specifically pointed out in a previous post that having hotels open most likely results in more, rather than fewer, people being able to celebrate with their families.

I have frequently been in your second category of people. I expect some gas stations and restaurants to be open, and others to be closed. I plan accordingly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ganzfeld View Post
Your argument seems to be based on several false dichotomies. People who can work vs people who can only see their family on shared holidays, holidays vs weekends or every day, people who need services on holidays vs people who are only taking advantage of others, etc.
I am entirely aware that some of the people who object to having to work on Thanksgiving want the day off so that they themselves could go shopping. I don't see where I've said anything that implies otherwise. And it would be impractical to have nearly everything close every day or every weekend; which is why we're discussing the advantages of doing so one or two days a year.

The line between genuinely needing a service on a holiday and only wanting to be able to do anything at any time, no matter the impact on others, is going to be essentially blurry. I have again not said otherwise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ganzfeld View Post
I understand it annoys some people but, really, bringing homelessness into this conversation is really ridiculous.
Why do you think it is ridiculous?

Do you think it is ridiculous to state that people in the United States who lose their jobs sometimes wind up homeless? If so, have you read any news in the past few years?

Do you think it is ridiculous to state that people who refuse to work on Thanksgiving, no matter how much they hate it, risk losing their jobs?

Do you think it is ridiculous to point out that your statement in post #37

Quote:
it seems pretty easy to see that there are plenty of people who are willing - even glad - to work on holidays. The ultimate test of this kind of thing is you go in the store and find it open with people working. Differences smoothed.
is inaccurate because the fact that you find that there are people working in the store does not mean that they are genuinely willing, let alone glad, to work there, because they may be doing so only for fear of the consequences of losing their jobs? You not only said that finding them working in the store meant that they were in some sense "willing" to work there, but that the differences between the workers and the ones requiring them to work could be proven to be "smoothed" by the fact that the workers showed up.


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Originally Posted by ganzfeld View Post
If this is such a huge issue then I think you should be able to at least find some support for your argument, some evidence that people working on holidays is a huge social burden.
I have no idea what you mean by "huge social burden".

And I have no idea what you mean by "some support for your argument."

If you want me to provide a clear cite that our civilization will come to an end if large numbers of people can't celebrate with their families, of course I can't do that; and I wasn't claiming that.

If you want me to provide a clear cite that cohesiveness of families is useful to society and that preventing them from getting together may be damaging to this, I don't know where to start, and haven't time to do the research; but I wasn't claiming that, either, though I suspect that it might be true.

If you want me to provide a clear cite that there are significant numbers of people who have to work on Thanksgiving at the sorts of businesses that until recently usually gave employees the day off, and who are significantly upset about this, I could give you hundreds or probably thousands of them. Why don't you save me the copy-and-paste and just put 'protest working on Thanksgiving' into Google, and read for a while.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ganzfeld View Post
I don't even see any need to be reminded. It's just nagging. Maybe more stores should be open on Thanksgiving. It seems more like a sacred cow than something that is a real problem.
It's not a problem for you. It is a problem for other people. People other than you are entitled to say when things are a problem for them, or when they have noticed that things are a problem for yet other people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ganzfeld View Post
some have pointed out that no one wants to make it illegal but I think if (g)you have a complaint about this thing other than making it illegal then you vote with your wallet.
Voting with one's wallet, as has again been pointed out repeatedly in this thread, is exactly what people are suggesting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ganzfeld View Post
I'm just saying people with businesses should be able to make decisions about which days and hours they do business as long as people aren't being overworked and underpaid.
If you actually do the Google reading I just suggested, you'll find out that a lot of the places recently requiring Thanksgiving work also have a lot of people complaining about being overworked and/or underpaid.

Exactly where the line is for reasonable expectations for either amount of work or amount of pay is of course an area in which people differ. While differing, they are entitled to make arguments about the subject.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ganzfeld View Post
Thanksgiving is my favorite. It's truly sacred to me. That has nothing to do with this question. The question is should I attempt to force what I think is sacred on other people.
No it isn't. No one has suggested forcing anyone to celebrate Thanksgiving.

The question is, should workplaces be able to force other people not to celebrate it; and how strong a reason should they need in order to do so; and what counts as a strong versus a weak reason.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmy101_again View Post
To many many people shopping is a family holiday activity. Who's to say what a suitable "family activity" is?

The only even remotely justifiable reason for a store to not open on a holiday is to avoid the need for people to work on the holiday. If other people want to spend their holiday shopping then what is wrong with that?
Nothing whatsoever.

Except possibly for the part about their desiring to do so meaning that other people don't get to spend their holiday doing what they want.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lainie View Post
If my brother had decided to take advantage of a rare day off from both work and caregiving, and hit up some sales to grab some bargains, would he have been "part of the problem"?

It's one thing to urge people to mindful, but tossing out judgmental phrases like that when we don't know people's individual situations seems unnecessary and unkind. ETA: And ironically, less than mindful.
I agree that individual situations vary a great deal, and that not shopping on Thanksgiving is much easier for some people than for others.

If your brother gets almost no possible time for shopping, then he's going to have to shop when he can, and shouldn't be blamed for it. I don't think that the entire society should have to keep all stores open so that he and those in similar situations can have the best possible selection available on Thanksgiving, however.
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  #95  
Old 22 November 2013, 09:28 PM
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One issue is that many of those retail workers aren't getting holiday pay and they're told they have to show up on Thanksgiving or they're fired. Other employers do give time and a half for people to work on Thanksgiving, and it's enough of an incentive to have people volunteer to work because they could use the extra money. For me, the only shopping I do on Thanksgiving itself is a quick run to the grocery store before it closes to get a forgotten ingredient.

I won't go shopping on Black Friday, as the only thing I do that day is visit family I couldn't see on Thanksgiving. I've worked in retail and I've seen how crazy that day is, so I prefer to stay home. My SIL on the other hand, has a tradition with her sisters and mom to go shopping on that day, so she's one of those who deals with the crowds.
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  #96  
Old 22 November 2013, 09:30 PM
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1. Okay people do know that the "OMG BLACK FRIDAY TURNS PEOPLE INTO MONSTERS! YOU'RE GONNA GET TRAMPLED TO DEATH IF YOU GO NEAR A STORE ON BLACK FRIDAY!" thing is a widely debunked myth right?

2. Yes people wanting to shop are Thanksgiving are greedy and excessive. Much better to waste fuel to travel so you can celebrate a holiday by stuffing food into other food and eating until you are in a coma. Much more sublime.

3. Thanksgiving sacred? Really? What exactly are we even celebrating?
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  #97  
Old 22 November 2013, 09:34 PM
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Sure the killings and severe injuries are fairly rare, but (and I don't know how common it has to be not to be a myth or how typical the places I've lived are with other places) the idea of tons and tons of people rushing around is pretty typical to most big box stores I've had the misfortune of being in or near on Black Friday (at the beginning of the day, sure if you roll in at 1PM it'll be fine).

Completely agreed about the second point, family togetherness is nice and all but most Thanksgiving traditions are built around excess (particularly with regard to food). They don't have to be of course, but then neither does shopping.

Here's a list of 15 notable deaths or injuries, and I'm sure there are countless examples of assault/battery (pushing through to get merch) and general craziness given the news stories every year.
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  #98  
Old 22 November 2013, 09:38 PM
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A quick google for Black Friday injuries and deaths turns up a surprising number of incidents. How has that been debunked?
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  #99  
Old 22 November 2013, 09:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sue View Post
A quick google for Black Friday injuries and deaths turns up a surprising number of incidents. How has that been debunked?
That they aren't statistically more likely to happen on Black Friday. There's millions of people shopping in America everyday. Accidents and injuries are going to happen.

What do people think that injures and accidents and incidents don't happen at all the Walmarts and Best Buys the other 363 days of the year?
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  #100  
Old 22 November 2013, 09:43 PM
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Are people often trampled in stores in the US then? How bizarre.
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