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  #41  
Old 26 February 2013, 01:47 AM
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You are assuming a level of vindictiveness that I do not have, here and a considerable lack of intelligence and integrity. Some of his family do know because they actually observed him doing it. And he has a record of DV (served time for what he did to the next woman), so it's not up to me to tell them. And thanks very much, but he did, in fact cause problems for me at work.

But what about talking about it here or on FB? Or saying to the media that my ex abused me (which is what the woman in the OP did).
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  #42  
Old 26 February 2013, 01:54 AM
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Originally Posted by WildaBeast View Post
Well, being hit would possibly leave bruises, so there might be at least some sort of physical evidence. The other things probably would be equally hard to prove as rape. So what? That doesn't make rape less difficult to prove.
Being raped would "possibly leave bruises" but a lack of bruises doesn't mean that you weren't hit or raped. And the point is that some people--see below--are saying that rape is uniquely difficult to prove. That somehow, women are more likely to falsely say that someone raped them than that someone robbed them, or borrowed their car without permission, or that it is uniquely difficult to defend oneself against a rape accusation compared to the many other instances of crimes where consent could be a defense.

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Originally Posted by Mickey Blue View Post
All that, aside from the things that plague all crimes, are what makes rape uniquely hard to prove.
I don't see anything that makes it uniquely hard to prove.

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Originally Posted by Kallah View Post
Any crime where a consensual scenario commonly plays out has the same issue. Lending items between friends (or family members) is fairly common, even expensive items such as gaming systems; unfortunately, theft between those individuals is also quite common, and can easily appear as "accidentally" keeping an item, or keeping an item to long "by mistake", or taking it when you had no permission "because she usually lets me borrow it". The difference between bumming my xbox and stealing it is purely one of consent, but how do I prove that this time I said they couldn't use it, after all the many times I had no issue? Worse yet, there's probably a dozen pictures of them and I messing around playing games at their place, but not a single scrap of paper saying I forbade them from using it tonight.
Exactly. There are many crimes that can come down to that old cliche, "he said/she said." It can apply to assaults, theft, robbery, fraud, and more. It's not unique. But somehow, guys don't worry so much about their buddy falsely accusing them of stealing their car.
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  #43  
Old 26 February 2013, 02:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erwins View Post
Being raped would "possibly leave bruises" but a lack of bruises doesn't mean that you weren't hit or raped. And the point is that some people--see below--are saying that rape is uniquely difficult to prove. That somehow, women are more likely to falsely say that someone raped them than that someone robbed them, or borrowed their car without permission, or that it is uniquely difficult to defend oneself against a rape accusation compared to the many other instances of crimes where consent could be a defense.
I may have misunderstood your point. I for some reason thought you were trying to argue that rape actually wasn't that difficult to prove.
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  #44  
Old 26 February 2013, 02:55 AM
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I'm not as angry as I was earlier so my temper has cooled off and hopefully my posts aren't as potentially argumentative, but just to play devil's advocate why would she go through so much humiliation from others, particularly this student court, and risk further humiliation, stigma, stress by making it even more public if it didn't happen? I know that's a question in any court case and yes there are false accusers who want money or 15 minutes of fame, but in this case she was possibly hurt by the ex but certainly by this court that was seen as authority figures and making it even more public by reporting this story and taking part in this formal complaint with the others. That's a long way to go for making a false accusation.
Like I said this thought wouldn't hold in court, but it's just something that I thought about.
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  #45  
Old 26 February 2013, 03:35 AM
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Rape is still rape if only the threat of violence, extortion, or other coersion is used. It is still non-consensual, and the necessity of "defensive wounds", struggle, or bruising harkens back to the biblical definition of rape depending upon whether or not anyone heard the victim's cries for help. Even an unloaded weapon can be used to silence a would-be victim into compliance, as could the threat of extortion.

As for equating rape with other crimes, let's equate crimes based on the actual punishment they receive. This cited wiki article states an average of 11.8 years sentenced, and 5.4 years served, for rape. This one from the UK says 8 years. What kind of crime results in a sentence of 8-12 years? Certainly not something as benign "taking a car without permission", or the theft of an item which cannot be traced or verified.

This article from Connecticut just happens to say that the minimum sentence for armed robbery is 5 years if a gun is used, 8 years if it is an "assault weapon". Now there are other mitigating factors here too, but it certainly looks like rape can be equated to a serious armed robbery using a gun, as both would result in that sentence of 8-12 years. That is a serious crime - one that is not taken lightly by the courts or by society as a whole. But I doubt that there are many false accusations of armed robbery, directed at a known suspect, just like there are probably not many such accusations of rape.

So let's put it to the others here - how badly would it affect your life if you were accused of, and tried for, the crime of armed robbery with a gun, facing a sentence of 8-12 years? What if you were convicted of it and served your time? Would that be any different from losing 8-12 years of your life for serving a sentence for rape? Somehow, I think that once jail time is measured in years, rather than months, crimes are considered to be quite severe, no matter what they are.
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  #46  
Old 26 February 2013, 03:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snopes View Post
Is proving whether or not the victim consented a key issue in many other crimes?
Isn't it? I don't suppose I could convince a jury you said I could borrow your car if I hotwired it but it seems to me it's a major line of defense in many kinds of theft and fraud.
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  #47  
Old 26 February 2013, 03:45 AM
Singing in the Drizzle Singing in the Drizzle is offline
 
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Having been on the receiving end of a girl wanting to get even and out for revenge for something you never did can know it can be a very scary thing. It was not rape, but she insisted that I did something that I now longer remember what it was since it was over 30 years ago. Tried to files charges against me saying see saw me and my car leave and knew it was me that did whatever it was. The police checked me out and asked me several question like where I was that night. Which I happen to be at some very public place with people of adult age all around for most of night. Even after the police were very satisfied I was nowhere near her for the night and explained it to her. She was still instant that I was the person that did it and was out to make my life miserable any way she could.

Any way thing were petty ruff for a while with her starting nasty rumors about me and physical attacking me with quick kicks, hits or projectiles when she got the chance. After a month or two most students just stop believing her and her social status quickly fell from the top to something much lower. She did not return the next year to the same school. But I did have a tuff time of it for a month or two with all the faults accusations and the constant threat of physical harm. The principle did work to make sure her schedule would not put her close to me, but not always possible in a small school.

Even today when I look back on it. I still wonder if she still really believes I did it assuming she still remember it.
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  #48  
Old 26 February 2013, 03:55 AM
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Just to be clear, and I'm not sure if you're addressing my argument or not: I'm not comparing crimes based on severity. I'm addressing the issue of men (it's almost always men) focusing on, or bringing up the issue of false accusations when it comes to rape, and talking about it as if it's a crime where there are more false accusations and where it is more difficult to defend yourself if there is a false accusation than with other crimes.

The very existence of the phrase "cry rape" speaks to this. Why isn't there a similar phrase about people who "cry theft" or "cry robbery" or "cry fraud"? Those crimes are all ones where the accused could be falsely accused and have a defense of consent ("I borrowed the car with permission; he loaned me the money and I never threatened him; she gave me the money as a gift.") But there seems to be a belief that false accusations happen more with rape, and, perhaps paradoxically both that you can't defend yourself in a "he said/she said" case, and that it's "hard to prove rape."

I think people underestimate the number of cases that are proved almost exclusively with testimonial evidence, with circumstantial/physical evidence that doesn't contradict either party's story. (Interestingly, popular culture sort of tends to dismiss both categories of evidence as being of a weak sort--there's "he said/she said", and there's "it's all just circumstantial." But of course, those are both sufficient types of evidence to prove a case, and are the basis of convictions literally all the time.)
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  #49  
Old 26 February 2013, 05:12 AM
Singing in the Drizzle Singing in the Drizzle is offline
 
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I’m just saying that being on the receiving end of a faults accusation not even nearly as bad as rape can be hard. I do not want to know what would have happen if she though that I tried to rape her. It was bad enough that people thought I did something to one of the more popular girls in school and she did not like it. Having most of the people in school think you should craw in a holes and stay with threats to put me there in a very personal manner I tried it again was not fun. It did not matter that the police believed that I was somewhere else that night. I do not want to know what it would have been if I was accused of rape.

It was me the average nobody at school vs the popular girl at school and I was losing the first few rounds. It was her numerous and continued false accusation that lead to people starting to disbelieve her.

This may be the reason I have very little sympathy for those that are wrongly accused people and always give the accused the benefit of doubt. Though with girl that was accusing me, I hope she got some professional treatment, because it did not think she was acting in a rational manner.
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  #50  
Old 26 February 2013, 05:13 AM
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Missed the edit window--My post was a response to/jumping off from Hero_Mike's post.
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  #51  
Old 26 February 2013, 06:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TurquoiseGirl View Post
You are assuming a level of vindictiveness that I do not have, here and a considerable lack of intelligence and integrity.
ETA: I'm sorry for any confusion. I had intended to use your question as a starting point to discuss the point in general, but I did not properly convey that, even with my mention of other victims and general statements like "anyone". I'll be more careful about making such statements in the future.

Last edited by Kallah; 26 February 2013 at 07:05 AM. Reason: ETA: Had issues with quotes, then removed the quote anyway.
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  #52  
Old 26 February 2013, 02:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hero_Mike View Post
Would [serving 8-12 for armed robbery] be any different from losing 8-12 years of your life for serving a sentence for rape?
For one thing, armed robbery convicts are not required to register their location even after they are off parole. Nor are they required to tell everyone in their neighborhood that they are a convict. Nor are their websites that list everything about them, including their address and photo.
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  #53  
Old 26 February 2013, 06:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GenYus234 View Post
For one thing, armed robbery convicts are not required to register their location even after they are off parole. Nor are they required to tell everyone in their neighborhood that they are a convict. Nor are their websites that list everything about them, including their address and photo.
Yes, good point. But an armed robbery convict may never be able to own a gun legally.

I'm asking if the actual sentence - the time served - is any different. My assertion is that it is not - the prospect of losing 8-12 years of my life, for whatever reason, is a sufficient deterrent.
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  #54  
Old 26 February 2013, 06:54 PM
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A robbery conviction would also tend to mean that one would be excluded from certain kinds of jobs, involving handling money, e.g. I think in most if not all states all felons are restricted from possessing (not just owning) guns.
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  #55  
Old 26 February 2013, 07:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hero_Mike View Post
I'm asking if the actual sentence - the time served - is any different.
I've no data for this, but inmates for sex crimes are supposedly targeted by other inmates far more often than other inmates.
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  #56  
Old 26 February 2013, 08:15 PM
jimmy101_again jimmy101_again is offline
 
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We have one side of the story, from the alleged victim.

That side was presented in a kangaroo court without the concept of perjury. We don't have the transcripts of what was presented to the kangaroo court so we don't know what evidence was given supporting or contradicting the accusation. I would expect that the kangaroo court proceedings included more than the couple questions that the alleged victim is reporting. The kangaroo court didn't find that a rules violation had been committed in the case of the rape, stalking or anything else the male was accused of.

Did she get asked some inappropriate questions? Yes. Would mental health be a factor that a "court" might rightly take into account? Yes. Was any evidence (such as emails, voice mails,...) presented by either side? We don't know. Did she take the matter to the Police? We don't know. Did the Police decide not to pursue the matter because of lack of evidence or strong evidence that the accusation was false? We don't know. Would the criminal justice system take into account the findings of the Kangaroo court? No.

Was she raped? Maybe. Is she lying? Maybe. Could the University be covering things up? Maybe.

Given the available info it is impossible to make a fact-based judgement. It is always possible to make a judgement based on other cases, but other cases are completely irrelevant to this case.
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  #57  
Old 26 February 2013, 08:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GenYus234 View Post
I've no data for this, but inmates for sex crimes are supposedly targeted by other inmates far more often than other inmates.
Targeted for what? Prison rape? Retributive justice? Extortion? Pressed membership into a gang? I would definitely like to see a cite for this.

The depictions I've seen of prison life, seem to indicate that an individual's "toughness" and their membership in a "protective society" is what determines their safety, and those who are, literally, "on their own", are the victims of rape, violence, extortion, and the like. We may like to think that there is a code of retributive justice in prisons, but I would surmise that a slim, attractive young male would be the target for potential rapists regardless of what crime he committed, or that an out-of-shape, middle-aged man with no history of violence, would similarly be taken advantage of, by more "hardened" criminals. (And yes, such people may find their way to maximum security prison.)

The social hierarchy in prisons is far more likely to be based upon opportunity, than morality.
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  #58  
Old 26 February 2013, 08:21 PM
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To get back to the OP a bit, I read through some of the comments on the original article from people asking the same question I did and it's very unclear why the Honor Board was hearing this case at all. It seems relevant to the OP however, since

1) There's no information provided on whether, say, this matter was only received by the Honor Board and not by the police
2) If only seen by the Honor Board, was that the school's doing? The plaintiff's?

It doesn't seem quite as open and shut as the original piece suggests because there are some strange gaps in the information on the scenario. Also, if the school did try to force her to only allow a criminal matter to be heard by them, that's actually even worse than what we started with.

On the other hand, I could also see a potential for abuse if the student felt they had a better shot at getting someone in trouble by starting with the Honor Board but knew they couldn't meet the evidence of a criminal complaint. But that's hardly a problem unique to rape cases.

So back to the original question, why in the crap is the school hearing anything about a rape case? All they should be concerned about is the criminal matter. Since rape is a felony, they shouldn't be trying this at all - if it was the plaintiff's idea, they should have referred her straight to the police and only gotten involved based on whether or not criminal charges were filed against another student. Everything else should have stemmed from that and they have absolutely no business interrogating a potential rape victim or her rapist.
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