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  #61  
Old 22 February 2013, 02:07 AM
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And here I was giving them credit for owning up to their mistakes. Oh well.
Besides the one who lied, what other violations of policy took place?
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  #62  
Old 22 February 2013, 02:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Sylvanz View Post
Then I would wager they all ought to be fired and replaced by people who can do the job properly. All the way from the top personel all the way down. And one person lied? No one corrected her? Well, that's different. It's perfectly fine to lie about your job and cover up for the liar especially when you are part of the public trust.
Aside from lying (which I don't think was trivial) they also did not follow their own procedures when dealing with children. But I guess that's ok too.
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  #63  
Old 22 February 2013, 02:09 AM
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Aside from lying (which I don't think was trivial) they also did not follow their own procedures when dealing with children. But I guess that's ok too.
In what way? Can you tell me where on the video you observed that? As for lying, I don't think that's trivial either, but then I have never maintained the TSA did everthing right here.
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  #64  
Old 22 February 2013, 02:16 AM
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I think one reason this is getting a lot of play (to bounce off UEL & Sylvanz) is because I doubt most people know that the TSA can separate a child from their parent & the parent can't see what is happening.

And yes, when my DD had to walk through the scanner by herself I gave her a little hug & reassured her. But she did it without tears & with just a little apprehension. It would have been much harder had she been screaming her head off & clinging to me like a howler monkey.

Travel with someone who needs extra attention can be stressful enough as it is, whether its a child or an adult. IMO, the TSA could be a little more compassionate towards those people. Not break or even bend any rules. Just an understanding that the reason someone is frustrated or nervous is because their toddler is screaming or their father needs to eat so he can take his medicine & if this takes too long that's going to be a problem with the flight time.
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  #65  
Old 22 February 2013, 02:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Sylvanz View Post
No, I don't, and more importantly neither did the oh so odious parents in the OP. I have not walked a mile in their shoes, and I will give them the benefit of the doubt because they are not the ones who violated their own professional standards of conduct.
Well, I never said they were odious, just wrongheaded. Aside from that, I got the distinct impression that they did think that their child in a wheelchair should not be searched, based on their comments. Have you seen some other comments that indicate otherwise?
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  #66  
Old 22 February 2013, 02:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Morgaine View Post
Travel with someone who needs extra attention can be stressful enough as it is, whether its a child or an adult. IMO, the TSA could be a little more compassionate towards those people. Not break or even bend any rules. Just an understanding that the reason someone is frustrated or nervous is because their toddler is screaming or their father needs to eat so he can take his medicine & if this takes too long that's going to be a problem with the flight time.
I agree completely.
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  #67  
Old 22 February 2013, 02:19 AM
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Everyone does grasp the difference between admitting your wrong because you are wrong and admitting your wrong because you recognize that fight simply isn't worth it right?

Or do you think that everyone that got a free meal from the manager of a restaurant just to shut them up was in the right just because the manager mouthed the words "I'm sorry Sir, let me make this right?"
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  #68  
Old 22 February 2013, 02:32 AM
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
Everyone does grasp the difference between admitting your wrong because you are wrong and admitting your wrong because you recognize that fight simply isn't worth it right?

Or do you think that everyone that got a free meal from the manager of a restaurant just to shut them up was in the right just because the manager mouthed the words "I'm sorry Sir, let me make this right?"
Is the manager in this restaurant responsible for the security of thousands of people flying in the air? No? Well then I fail to see the comparison. If they were in the wrong it behooves them to admit it. If they were not then they need to be big girls and boys and say so. It seems odd to me that you just assume that they are apologizing 'cause they can't be bothered to defend themselves. That really seems to be the only possibility to you.

Like I said: I can't hear it, but the parents' comments I could read seemed to imply that they just wanted the ordeal handled in a more appropriate manner. I really think the policy of children being sepparated from their parents (and I include other people in need of guardians here) should be changed. It doesn't fly anywhere else and shouldn't fly (eh no pun intended ) fly here.
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  #69  
Old 22 February 2013, 02:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Sylvanz View Post
Like I said: I can't hear it, but the parents' comments I could read seemed to imply that they just wanted the ordeal handled in a more appropriate manner. I really think the policy of children being sepparated from their parents (and I include other people in need of guardians here) should be changed. It doesn't fly anywhere else and shouldn't fly (eh no pun intended ) fly here.
Separating parents from children does not seem like a good idea, but that didn't happen here that I could see. I did see separation of the child from her stuffed toy, but they gave it back. Am I missing a video in which it shows the child being separated from the parents?
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  #70  
Old 22 February 2013, 02:53 AM
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Originally Posted by wanderwoman View Post
Separating parents from children does not seem like a good idea, but that didn't happen here that I could see. I did see separation of the child from her stuffed toy, but they gave it back. Am I missing a video in which it shows the child being separated from the parents?
I was addressing the experience of UEL and others with that comment. I don't know if that is always policy, but if it is I'm agin' it.

I was just very disgusted because this thread went directly from, "Hmm the TSA have done something wrong and admitted it" to "The Parents are the SUXORS!!! and it was all their fault." I wasn't there (and I admittedly cannot hear the video) but she is their child and they appear to be a decent family, who takes good care of her (I know looks can be deceiving yadda yadda) but lets just assume that looks are correct this time. Why all the parent hate? I just don't understand why they are getting virtually all the condemnation in this thread and the TSA gets a bunch of tea and sympathy about how difficult their lot in life is.

Joe is convinced that TSA couldn't possibly done anything wrong and are only apologizing because cute disabled child = apology.
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  #71  
Old 22 February 2013, 03:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Sylvanz View Post
I was addressing the experience of UEL and others with that comment. I don't know if that is always policy, but if it is I'm agin' it.

I was just very disgusted because this thread went directly from, "Hmm the TSA have done something wrong and admitted it" to "The Parents are the SUXORS!!! and it was all their fault." I wasn't there (and I admittedly cannot hear the video) but she is their child and they appear to be a decent family, who takes good care of her (I know looks can be deceiving yadda yadda) but lets just assume that looks are correct this time. Why all the parent hate? I just don't understand why they are getting virtually all the condemnation in this thread and the TSA gets a bunch of tea and sympathy about how difficult their lot in life is.

Joe is convinced that TSA couldn't possibly done anything wrong and are only apologizing because cute disabled child = apology.
That's not the impression I'm getting from this thread. What I see is the thread going from "hmm the TSA have done something wrong and admitted it" to "actually, just because they apologized, doesn't mean they were in the wrong" and when people responded with "but they violated their own policies!" pointing out that it makes sense they would say that, since they don't want people thinking their policies involve making adorable disabled toddlers cry, and asking for examples of specific things they did wrong. It's a fair question. I don't really know what the TSA's policies are, or even what they ought to be; I'm not sure the fact that someone got upset proves a change needs to be made. As someone who worked with the public for many years, I can agree with the general sentiment that there are some situations where you just can't win.

That said, it's also been my experience that a lot of TSA agents are just plain jerks. I'm not ruling out the possibility that such was the case here, and I don't think anyone else is, either; they're just not rushing to condemn them without solid evidence.
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  #72  
Old 22 February 2013, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Sylvanz View Post
I was addressing the experience of UEL and others with that comment. I don't know if that is always policy, but if it is I'm agin' it.

I was just very disgusted because this thread went directly from, "Hmm the TSA have done something wrong and admitted it" to "The Parents are the SUXORS!!! and it was all their fault." I wasn't there (and I admittedly cannot hear the video) but she is their child and they appear to be a decent family, who takes good care of her (I know looks can be deceiving yadda yadda) but lets just assume that looks are correct this time. Why all the parent hate? I just don't understand why they are getting virtually all the condemnation in this thread and the TSA gets a bunch of tea and sympathy about how difficult their lot in life is.
I started in with criticism of the parents and I stand by it, minus some credit to them because they may not have realized what direction the media would take it (though that is hard to believe, given what dad does for a living). The video in the OP was so condescending to children with disabilities that it made me want to vomit.

I come from the point of view(vastly simplified here, for brevity) that society should accommodate people with disabilities so that they can live, as much as possible, like people without disabilities. This means making some sort of arrangement to get a person(of any age) who uses a wheelchair onto a plane so that person can travel. To me, it does not include exempting them from all the unpleasantness the rest of us have to endure, just because they have a disability. That is a part of life for everyone.

The parents were crying that they and their daughter were being treated like criminals, indicating to me that they think they should be swept through security without the chair being examined. I disagree. A child in a wheelchair would be the perfect way to put a bomb on a plane, if one could be sure it would not be scrutinized and had no qualms about killing a child to achieve their means. Those would probably be the same kind of people who would fly a plane full of people of all ages into a building filled with people of all ages.

Now, to the extent they just think that TSA should be more sensitive to the individual's needs, I agree, both for those with and without disabilities. Although, looking through the video, except for the woman who lied, it seems to me that everyone else is trying to be sympathetic and listen to the mother's suggestions for helping her child. So why vilify all of them when only one of them has done something wrong? They have a job to do, and I haven't seen anyone suggest here what else the TSA workers did that violated policy.

I work in a field in which I have to do an unpleasant job and get criticized no matter what I do. I accept that there are some occupations that are that way, and will get criticized no matter what because what they do is unpleasant for people, despite being necessary. However, I refuse to chime in on it unless the workers are actually doing something wrong, and somebody who knows what they are talking about can point out what it is.
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  #73  
Old 22 February 2013, 11:03 AM
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I think in the post 911 world, everyone wants security, no one likes it. There will be People will crib and moan when they have to go through security, but if you take a poll whether security measures should be reduced, majority will say no. Outrage over security measures followed by apologies from TSA has become an American institution now.

Security is something that most people want, and being probed and inspected is something that they have to live with. Even if its done grudgingly. Similarily, I'm sure most TSA people just want to do their job professionally. Mishaps like these are something that they have to live with.

Not that I like it, but this is something that I have to live with.
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  #74  
Old 22 February 2013, 11:10 AM
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I would also point out that the video I posted makes it clear that this all happened after the mother had already tripped the alarms with her earrings. I assume there are some extra procedures that must be followed once an alarm is tripped, and I hear people in the video trying to explain that to her.

I don't know about the rest of you, but when I travel for leisure I dress for airport security. I try to wear nothing that would trip the alarms and obey all the guidance that I have been given about what cannot go through security. Had I been in this family's place, I would have been wearing no jewelry and would have been carrying the child through security separately from her chair. No guarantees, but I think that if they had not tripped security in the first place, their experience might have been very different.
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  #75  
Old 22 February 2013, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by wanderwoman View Post
I would also point out that the video I posted makes it clear that this all happened after the mother had already tripped the alarms with her earrings. I assume there are some extra procedures that must be followed once an alarm is tripped, and I hear people in the video trying to explain that to her.
How odd then that the child is the one being singled out - to the point where a TSA agent even takes her stuffed toy away from her. Which is what made a 3 yr old cry in the first place. Something I know would have happened had anyone tried to separate my 3 year old from her boon companion back in the day. Of course clearly the parents are once again at fault as they should never have allowed the child to become attached to a stuffed toy in the first place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esprise Me View Post
That's not the impression I'm getting from this thread. What I see is the thread going from "hmm the TSA have done something wrong and admitted it" to "actually, just because they apologized, doesn't mean they were in the wrong" and when people responded with "but they violated their own policies!" pointing out that it makes sense they would say that, since they don't want people thinking their policies involve making adorable disabled toddlers cry, and asking for examples of specific things they did wrong. .
I saw "it's all down to crappy parenting" and "the parents are playing the sympathy card" posts which I found odd considering all the parents wanted was for the TSA to follow their own procedures correctly - oh and not to lie to them and try to intidimate them from doing something they are legally allowed to do (filming).
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  #76  
Old 22 February 2013, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Sylvanz View Post
Yet everyone seems ready to jump on the, "Parents just SUCK!!!111!!"
band wagon.
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Originally Posted by Sylvanz View Post
"They apologized? Ah ha! That just proves that they are INNOCENT!!!111!!!"
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Originally Posted by Sylvanz View Post
I was just very disgusted because this thread went directly from, "Hmm the TSA have done something wrong and admitted it" to "The Parents are the SUXORS!!! and it was all their fault."
This annoys me, because it's the written equivalent of putting on a stupid voice to do an impression of somebody you're arguing with. It's a dismissive way of trying to make somebody else look stupid, and it's unfair.
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  #77  
Old 22 February 2013, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Sue View Post
How odd then that the child is the one being singled out - to the point where a TSA agent even takes her stuffed toy away from her. Which is what made a 3 yr old cry in the first place. Something I know would have happened had anyone tried to separate my 3 year old from her boon companion back in the day. Of course clearly the parents are once again at fault as they should never have allowed the child to become attached to a stuffed toy in the first place.
It is not like the parents could possibly have put anything in the child's chair, or on her person, or stuffed toy because they think she is less likely to be searched, or anything.
It really sounds like you are objecting to the child being seatched at all.

Quote:
I saw "it's all down to crappy parenting" and "the parents are playing the sympathy card" posts which I found odd considering all the parents wanted was for the TSA to follow their own procedures correctly - oh and not to lie to them and try to intidimate them from doing something they are legally allowed to do (filming).
This has been asked several times already, but I will try again. Exactly what procedures did you see violated? Other than the single person who told her not to film, what procedures did TSA fail to follow?
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  #78  
Old 22 February 2013, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Sue View Post
How odd then that the child is the one being singled out - to the point where a TSA agent even takes her stuffed toy away from her. Which is what made a 3 yr old cry in the first place. Something I know would have happened had anyone tried to separate my 3 year old from her boon companion back in the day. Of course clearly the parents are once again at fault as they should never have allowed the child to become attached to a stuffed toy in the first place.
Nice straw man. Try sticking to the argument I actually was making, rather than making up your own version.


Quote:
I saw "it's all down to crappy parenting" and "the parents are playing the sympathy card" posts which I found odd considering all the parents wanted was for the TSA to follow their own procedures correctly - oh and not to lie to them and try to intidimate them from doing something they are legally allowed to do (filming).
I don't recall any posts that mentioned crappy parenting, but the parents are playing the sympathy card to imply that they shouldn't have had to go through this because it made their child cry. And once again, please point out anyone else besides the woman who lied (which has already been conceded as wrong) and explain how they violated TSA policy.
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  #79  
Old 22 February 2013, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by geminilee View Post
It is not like the parents could possibly have put anything in the child's chair, or on her person, or stuffed toy because they think she is less likely to be searched, or anything.
It really sounds like you are objecting to the child being seatched at all.
I object to the way in which they conducted their "search" -which in the end wasn't really much of a search at all. But I particularly object to the way some in this thread have trivialized what this family went through and have brushed aside the fact that in this specific situation the TSA agents did not behave in a professional manner. I guess I am somewhat surprised at how willing many of you are to be bullied by officials - this is not an attitude I expected to see and I do wonder how much of that attitude is coloured by a "let's pile on the parents" mindset.
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  #80  
Old 22 February 2013, 11:48 AM
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Nice straw man. Try sticking to the argument I actually was making, rather than making up your own version.
Strawman? Okay - discussing what actually happened rather than what you think should have happened is a strawman argument? Fine. You are taking this thread incredibly personally. I will not be responding to any further posts you make here.
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