Dear bully

[Furienna]

Yeah, I guess it depends on the situation. Some people won't use their intelligence to do good things.

[Latiam]

Our school is actually very good about bullying. But on Friday at our staff meeting they were talking about a new strategy that is coming into place over the entire Board. Everyone who comes into any school - teacher, principal, superintendent, contractor, volunteer, anyone - who witnesses bullying is to tell the bully, "That's not acceptable." If the bullying continues they are to escort the bully to the office (or have a teacher do it, in the case of someone with power tools that they can't leave laying around, for example). I think it might have an effect. It's an improvement, anyway. An adult who doesn't act is giving tacit approval.

[Cervus]

That means they have to witness it, though. Which, as I said earlier, can be hard to do with girl-on-girl bullying, because it's often subtle and can include things such as whispering about someone (whether fake or not; pretending to whisper about someone and making sure they see you laughing at them is just as bad as actually doing it.)

[Furienna]

Yeah, bullies often make sure that no adult sees what they're doing. But if they're trying to stop the bullying at this school, that's at least a start.

[Hero_Mike]

There are too many aspects of bullying which aren't seen - being ostracized, or having rumors made about you, or the whispered threats. Once a teacher turns their back, they can't see things like an angry look, a fist-pound, or a throat slash. There are always witnesses to this, but nobody will step forward because of that unwritten "code" of conduct. Even those who aren't victims just keep their head down and pretend that they saw nothing, lest they become the target of the bully.

[Latiam]

Originally Posted by Furienna

Yeah, bullies often make sure that no adult sees what they're doing. But if they're trying to stop the bullying at this school, that's at least a start.

We don't have much of an issue with bullying at our school. The kids do an anonymous computer survey as soon as they are old enough to understand it. I have only seen the 4/5 version but it was quite comprehensive. Kids come from other schools and discover that that stuff isn't done here and there is a negative response from all the kids who have been here. Also it is easier to keep an eye on what is going on because we have 200 students. We're quite small. As for the initiative, it is not the school. It is the entire board- all the schools, elementary and secondary.

[Twankydillo]

Originally Posted by Cervus

But girl-on-girl bullying is psychological, and runs far, far deeper. It can go on for years and leave a lifetime of paranoia and self-esteem issues. It also can't be handled the same way as a bully who physically threatens you.

I've heard this a lot, but never found it to be especially true. Uncomfortably, it's often used to make boys look more 'noble' ("they'll just hit and then forgive and forget!") and girls look more bitchy and cruel.

So is it true that girls make the worse bullies? Is there proof of this? I've never yet found proof that psychological torment belongs to female bullies alone, or that boys are 'kinder' and will simply hit you. I admit, though, the only sources I've found begged the question that such a thing is true and tried to explain why.

The boys who bullied me (I'm female) were, in my case, more damaging to my self-esteem and more poisonous than the girls. That's why I'm a bit touchy about this. I don't like the idea that bullying by boys is somehow more innocent, when I found it to be worse.

[crocoduck_hunter]

I agree, psychological bullying is conducted regardless of sex. It's not more common among girls, it's more common among older and more successful bullies. The ones who just try to beat you up get caught and dealt with at an earlier age. The ones who've figured out how to use verbal and mental attacks instead of physical are the ones who are more often ignored by authorities and thus able to keep bullying.

[Sue]

I'd like to see real studies done on this as well rather than first hand accounts - important as these are. In my family the only child I know of who was bullied was one of my nephews and it was by other boys and was never physical (although there were lots of threats of things geting phyical). The bullying ended in his case when some girls in the class told the boys involved to knock it off or they'd go to the teacher. I doubt this is always a solution but it worked in this case - possibly as it was a younger grade.

[Cervus]

I just can't picture boys treating other boys the same ways that nasty girls treat other girls. Catty whispering, laughter, and gossip? Publicly criticizing every feature of another boy's body because they don't look like the cover of Seventeen? Intentional exclusion and alienation from a clique? (Do boys even form cliques?)

Nearly every in-depth article I've ever read about bullying recognizes that girls and boys tend to bully in different ways. I shouldn't have implied that one was "worse" than the other, but that is my experience. I don't recall ever reading an account of a boy who was bullied (or who bullied others) in the catty, manipulative way I'm familiar with from girls. However, I don't think it matters whether anyone has it "worse" -- what matters is that different forms of bullying need to be recognized and handled differently. You might be able to hide from the person who pushes you around, but you can't hide from the person or people spreading rumors about you throughout the school.

[Hero_Mike]

Originally Posted by Cervus

I just can't picture boys treating other boys the same ways that nasty girls treat other girls. Catty whispering, laughter, and gossip? Publicly criticizing every feature of another boy's body because they don't look like the cover of Seventeen? Intentional exclusion and alienation from a clique? (Do boys even form cliques?)

This is the part which happens when you can't make the physical threats and attacks - when people are looking. "Trash talk" didn't start out between equals rivals, but in team sports where everyone had to participate - it was just another way to pick on the "uncool", and at that age, the "uncool" are the unathletic and clumsy.

[crocoduck_hunter]

Originally Posted by Cervus

I just can't picture boys treating other boys the same ways that nasty girls treat other girls. Catty whispering, laughter, and gossip? Publicly criticizing every feature of another boy's body because they don't look like the cover of Seventeen? Intentional exclusion and alienation from a clique? (Do boys even form cliques?)

Bullies will go after anything that sets you apart or makes you appear different: weight, physical features, being clumsy or uncoordinated, lack of ability at sports: it doesn't matter as long as it hurts the victim.

And boys absolutely form cliques.

[Cervus]

Originally Posted by crocoduck_hunter

Bullies will go after anything that sets you apart or makes you appear different: weight, physical features, being clumsy or uncoordinated, lack of ability at sports: it doesn't matter as long as it hurts the victim.

I know that. I'm talking about the different ways in which bullying occurs between the sexes.

What are boy cliques like?

[crocoduck_hunter]

Assholes, mostly. I was never an insider for any of the ones when I was in school: I was the weird kid who got picked on by them.

[Blatherskite]

Originally Posted by Cervus

I just can't picture boys treating other boys the same ways that nasty girls treat other girls. Catty whispering, laughter, and gossip?.

I'm female, but I observed boys treating other boys this way in school. Think of how often boys will taunt other boys for perceived 'gayness'. It's not always rough friendly banter. Is that not 'catty' just because it's got nothing to do with what's on the cover of Seventeen magazine? I was also psychologically bullied by boys just as much as by girls. I think it's just as relevant to look at how boys bully girls when it comes to determining how male bullies think and act.

In my opinion, bullies of either sex think exactly the same way. It's possible that for whatever reason girl bullies are less likely to use physical violence, but that doesn't mean that psychological bullying is a mean girls territory. It doesn't mean that boy bullies are oblivious to those snide tactics.

[Mosherette]

Originally Posted by Cervus

Intentional exclusion and alienation from a clique? (Do boys even form cliques?)

That happened to me in sixth form, instigated and perpetuated by two boys. It was the heavy metal/goth clique I was excluded from, and it was mixed sex.

[Alarm]

Originally Posted by Cervus

I know that. I'm talking about the different ways in which bullying occurs between the sexes.

What are boy cliques like?

Kearney, Nelson and the other bullies from the Simpsons, in the early seasons, had other kids around them that were just toadies.

That's what boy cliques are mostly like. The head bully attracts followers through fear or "admiration", protection, etc.

Usually getting the head bully to back off gets the whole gang off your back, but that's usually easier said than done as they will tend to swarm you if they can.

[Ramblin' Dave]

It wasn't exactly exclusion from a clique, but one of the nastier male bullies I ran into was the best friend from elementary school of a mutual friend we had in junior high. He wanted said mutual friend to himself, and he engaged in all sorts of psychological warfare to push me out of the circle. I stood my ground, but in retrospect I would have been better off leaving well enough alone. This is largely because the mutual friend saw how cruel he was (and that it was a one way street) but never did anything to discourage him. I suspect he probably enjoyed being the object of such rivalry. He later turned out to be a real jerk in his own right, but that's another story.

[Pudding Crawl]

IME there was not a male-female difference but a friendship one. Since most school-age friendships are same-sex, that might add to the 'girls taunt, boys thump' perception.
The psychological bullying is more common- and effective- coming from people you potentially have things in common with. The on-and-off friends, who you want the approval and attention of because you share interests or a sense of humour. It's a 'weakness' they pick up on very easily, and exploit. As in Dave's example they might appoint themselves gatekeeper to a mutual friend. And when you work out that no, you really are better off lonely than enduring them, they become very difficult to ignore.

With random thump-and-forget bullies, there isn't the same grounds for nasty mind games. They hate you because you're weird/ugly/quiet/clever- you'd never socialise with or want anything from one another. If they want to make you miserable it isn't in that sustained, personal way.

[Twankydillo]

Originally Posted by Cervus

I don't recall ever reading an account of a boy who was bullied (or who bullied others) in the catty, manipulative way I'm familiar with from girls. However, I don't think it matters whether anyone has it "worse" -- what matters is that different forms of bullying need to be recognized and handled differently. You might be able to hide from the person who pushes you around, but you can't hide from the person or people spreading rumors about you throughout the school.

I had mostly male friends at school, and they were bullied in exactly the same way I was - by both boys and girls. I was bullied in the "catty, manipulative way" by boys ... I was insulted in great detail for my appearance, had rumours spread about me, was called 'it', 'that' and 'thing', heard boys openly talking about me behind my back in an attempt to get me to acknowledge that I could hear them, had them move out of the way when I passed, making it plain that they didn't want to touch me, screaming "eww!" if, say, a sleeve did brush them, spitting on me, throwing things at me or putting things on me, mockingly trying to befriend me to see how close they could get before running laughing to their friends ... all those other spiteful, mean things that bullies can do.

My male friends had similar problems, as did my female friends.

I think perhaps it was different in your experience because, perhaps, you were more exposed to the girls than the boys. Perhaps the girls had more connection to you, chances to pick on you, chances to observe you and so to torment you. Did you know any of them in any way previously as well? I had the problem that I lived next door to one of my (male) tormentors, and he was one of the most popular people in the school. I don't know about cliques, I suspect we didn't have any (not in any big sense). There were scallies not scallies, as far as I could tell!

Also women and girls are more taken by the onslaught of image criticism, so perhaps the important thing is the sex of the person being subjected to bullying.