An urban myth and its real-life understanding

[Barbara]

Kallah, one's very first apartment often proves to be an education - prior to it, so many things are taken for granted.

[mags]

One of the first things one often does when they get home is want to use the bathroom. We were quite annoyed the previous owners took every scrap of toilet paper in the house when they left. It's not like we were expecting full rolls in each bathroom, but surely they didn't run out in four bathrooms perfectly just before moving out. They would have had to make special effort just to remove partial rolls. It seemed petty.

When we move, I definitely will leave toilet paper behind.

The thing that has caused real problems, though, is they didn't leave behind extra paint from when they last painted (indoor or outdoor). We had to repaint the outside since we moved in, so at least we have touch-up paint there now. I'm not in love with the color they painted the whole inside, but it's still in too good of shape to want to go through the expense and hassle of painting the entire place. There are places we've moved installed shelves, or had minor wall damage, where it would be nice to cover the white spackle. Even though they're really good, and we took a decent sized cut-out from a painted wall to be color matched, Sherwin Williams hasn't been able to recreate the color to the point a patch of touch-up won't show up on the wall.

So, for heavens sake, especially if your walls aren't white, leave touch-up paint for the new owners.

[Troberg]

I don't leave toilet paper, I consider it a part of the moving out cleanup to remove such items. Who would want second hand hygiene items?

As for touch-up paint (and wallpaper, carpet bits and so on), I leave it if I have it. I seldom have touch-up paint, though, as I keep painting until I'm out of paint.

[snopes]

Originally Posted by Troberg

I don't leave toilet paper, I consider it a part of the moving out cleanup to remove such items. Who would want second hand hygiene items?

Why not? "Second-hand" doesn't necessarily mean "used."

[Chloe]

Originally Posted by Troberg

As for touch-up paint (and wallpaper, carpet bits and so on), I leave it if I have it. I seldom have touch-up paint, though, as I keep painting until I'm out of paint.

Wait, not when you've finished painting the room?

[GenYus234]

He may be doing a second/third coat on the room he already painted rather than moving down the hallway until he runs out.

[Cervus]

Originally Posted by Troberg

I don't leave toilet paper, I consider it a part of the moving out cleanup to remove such items. Who would want second hand hygiene items?

I would hope second-hand toilet paper isn't left behind! A full or partial roll should be basic courtesy, though.

I'm curious, why do you consider left-behind toilet paper to be a second-hand hygiene item? It's no different than any other roll you'd use at someone's house or a public toilet.

That reminds me, another thing that people often don't think about getting until they need one is a toilet plunger. When I rented, I knew that maintenance would come unclog a toilet if I needed it, but I considered that too embarrassing to call them about. Also, if you only have one bathroom and it's late at night, it's better to just have a plunger on hand than to have to track down a maintenance guy and wait for them.

[WildaBeast]

Originally Posted by Hero_Mike

For the budget-conscious, replacing any CFL (or LED) bulbs with plain-old incandescent lights can certainly save a few dollars with next to no outlay.

I did that with my first apartment back in 2002 -- I replaced most of the incandescent bulbs with CFLs, saved the old bulbs, and when I moved out I put the incandescent ones back and took the CFLs with me. CFL bulbs cost more back then than they do now, so I wanted to get my money's worth out of them. I actually still had all of them when I bought this house in 2008, though most of them burned out a year or two ago.

Regarding toilet paper, I was the last person to move out of my dorm suite when I was moving into my apartment, so I, uhh, helped myself to a few rolls from the dorm bathroom.

Since this house was a foreclosure, all the rules about what items stay and what the last occupants took with them pretty much went out the window. Strangely enough they left the shower curtain (a rather nice decorative one, too) but they took the light fixture from the bathroom.

[Cervus]

My aunt and uncle moved in to find light bulbs and fixtures missing, as well as cover plates for switches and outlets, curtains, etc. Apparently the previous owner of the house thought that anything that she put into the house, she could take. Not so - the real-estate agreement is pretty clear about this and the standard agreement would require her to leave anything that is "installed" - so anything that is not fastened, nailed or screwed in is fair game, but light bulbs, light fixtures, cover plates, faucets, shower heads - all have to stay. Window coverings too, though often a specific one will be excluded.

When I bought my house I don't recall anything about rules stating what items had to stay in the house or not. I bought it on a short sale, if that makes any difference. As it turned out, the sellers left so much crap in the house, it took me days to clear it all out. They kept trying to persuade me to keep their stuff (No, I do NOT want a second fridge, especially if it's full-size and located outside on the porch. No, you are NOT leaving that queen-sized mattress in the attic.) They were literally moving out at the last minute, the day we signed the paperwork, and I had to be firm that THEY had to move all the bulk items out of the house and take them with them or leave them for pickup. They still left behind bags of shoes, childrens' toys, and their daughters' old homework and assorted teenage miscellany in the attic. I let it sit for a few weeks in case they contacted me to get it back, but then I gave it away or threw the stuff out.

When I sell this place and move out, I'm taking certain fixtures and cover plates with me, but that's only because they're decorative and/or special. I'll replace them with generic ones for the next owners, though. For example, when I redid both bathrooms I put in new showerheads, but all I could find were the new low-flow kind. The showerhead I use is the old kind that actually uses lots of pressure and is like spraying yourself with a hose (I like that). So I'm going to take that with me wherever I live and then just replace it with one of the newer (wimpy in comparison) models when I move out.

[me, no really]

Make sure that you either replace those things when people view that house, or specify in the contract that those things will be removed and replaced by you. Not sure about the US (and it probbaly varies by state as well) but here, the standard Real Estate contract states that anything that is a fixed part of the house when the contract is completed stays in the house, with the exception of anything listed on the contract. Anything removed by the seller (even if it is replaced with a variant) can be grounds for a complaint from the buyer, and even cancelling the contract.

[Lainie]

Originally Posted by Cervus

The showerhead I use is the old kind that actually uses lots of pressure and is like spraying yourself with a hose (I like that).

Me too. I don't want to be gently rained on.

[Roadie]

When we bought our house, it had been vacant for 2 years since it was foreclosed on. Every room has multiple ceiling or wall fixtures - and there were zero bulbs. I think we needed 60+ bulbs (the master bathroom vanity alone is 10). The previous owners also took bookcases from the living room, and the carpeting only went up to where the cases stood. Most outlet covers were missing. Our Christmas list for our family that year was lightbulbs, outlet covers, and smoke detectors.

I originally thought they'd also taken the remote for the ceiling fan in the dining room, but I found waaaaay back in a kitchen cabinet when I was putting in shelf paper.

[Cervus]

Here's what my contract says:

Parties hereby agree that Seller shall sell and Buyer shall buy the following described Real Property and Personal Property....Personal Property includes existing range(s), refrigerator(s), dishwasher(s), ceiling fan(s), light fixture(s) and window treatment(s) unless specifically excluded below...

That's it. It doesn't say anything about light bulbs, outlet covers, faucets or shower fixtures. We added "washer, dryer, and kitchen island" to Personal Property even though I wound up having to ditch the washer and dryer because they were beyond repair.

Honestly, the house was in such bad condition that my plan was to renovate and replace practically everything anyway, so at the time it wasn't an issue for me.

[Hero_Mike]

Originally Posted by Cervus

When I bought my house I don't recall anything about rules stating what items had to stay in the house or not

See my comment below.

When I sell this place and move out, I'm taking certain fixtures and cover plates with me, but that's only because they're decorative and/or special.

You may be asking for legal trouble by doing this after the house is shown with those items. This is, because, as described below, those items are "real property". It's not uncommon for the house to be staged with various different "personal property" items - from furniture, to scented candles, to books on bookshelves - but you can't arbitrarily uninstall items which are "installed".

Originally Posted by Cervus

That's it. It doesn't say anything about light bulbs, outlet covers, faucets or shower fixtures. We added "washer, dryer, and kitchen island" to Personal Property even though I wound up having to ditch the washer and dryer because they were beyond repair.

That's what is meant by "real property" - anything that is attached, as in screwed in like a faucet, is "real property", and that includes electrical cover plates, light fixtures, the shower curtain rod (if it is attached by screws) and not the curtain, and so on. A built-in dishwasher is "real property", as is one of those range-hood microwaves, but not one on the kitchen counter. Free-standing shelves are personal property - those attached to the wall are "real property".

I had this explained to me in detail by my real estate agent when buying and selling - and that buyers will often ask for (and receive) permission to take pictures of the house they have bought, so that they can consider redecorating, the best arrangement of their furniture, etc. They also do it to prove that the "real property" of the house is unchanged. This may be specific to region - i.e. Canada or Ontario vs. each US state - but I was told to expect things to be unchanged as a buyer, and warned not to change them as a seller. The extension of the argument over what is (and isn't) mentioned specifically - as you quote it - can be taken to some really absurd conclusions. If the cover plates can go, why not the outlets? If they light fixtures can go, why not the wires? Why not the sink, or the internal doors? The blanket definition of "real property" was things which were affixed or installed. Area rugs could go - carpet glued or nailed down could not. I remember some specific literature on window coverings but generally I was told that as a buyer I should ensure that they are included in my offer. And this is also subjective on what was, or was not, in the house at the time of the offer. I suppose that a buyer could make their offer conditional upon the seller putting in some basic window coverings, if there weren't any at the time of showing, but it's usually better to adjust the value of the offer accordingly.

Now in these days of bank-owned and short-sale homes, there really isn't much to worry about the seller taking anything of "value" between making the offer and closing, because it is usually all gone. I bought a bank-owned house here in the US with a broken window and was told by the seller that they wouldn't consider making the repair of said window a condition of purchase. In other words, it was one of the "as-is" conditions. But by the same token, the house was explicitly offered for sale with a stove to fulfill some type of requirement for a HUD-sponsored loan, and they could not change out or remove the stove between the time the offer was made, and the closing.

I think that the law would generally be upon the side of the buyer who was sold something under such conditions of fraud, especially if it results in lower value. Let's face it - a cheap electrical cover plate does its job just as well as a fancy one, but the fancy one is worth more.

[Cervus]

Originally Posted by Hero_Mike

That's what is meant by "real property" - anything that is attached, as in screwed in like a faucet, is "real property", and that includes electrical cover plates, light fixtures, the shower curtain rod (if it is attached by screws) and not the curtain, and so on. A built-in dishwasher is "real property", as is one of those range-hood microwaves, but not one on the kitchen counter. Free-standing shelves are personal property - those attached to the wall are "real property".

My contract, and I assume the laws here, specifically state that "real property" is only the actual structure itself, the parcel of land and lot number at that address. Personal property is whatever is in the house. So it varies according to your local laws, and that's something you need to discuss with a realtor.

But whatever. I'll replace my personal stuff with generic fixtures when I'm getting ready to put the house on the market. I didn't mean to imply that I'd like, stealthily sneak away with the ceiling fan blades the morning of the closing or something.