Oprah says "tip 10 percent"

[fitz1980]

Originally Posted by stalker

I know that ganzfeld has answered this already, but I find the question kind of intriguing.

What other industries in the USA have tipping for customer facing jobs? For the ones that don't, is there a noticeable difference in the quality of customer care that you get?

Go into a McDonalds or a movie theater and tell me what you think. Go to a car dealership (where the sales men make a commission off of you) and tell me what you think?

Originally Posted by Beachlife!

So then restraunts are going to become staffed with 26% illegal aliens unless we get rid of the American system for tipping?

How's that? I got the exact opposite from that that. If we get rid of tipping and just make the restaurants pay minimum wage it will turn into McDonalds where the people behind the counter don't even speak English.

Oh and I'd say that 26% of many restaurants are already staffed with illegals, in the kitchen. The be a kitchen manager in most places that I've worked you pretty much have to speak Spanish.

Originally Posted by ganzfeld

The way it's set up, some workers really don't get paid if they don't get tipped. That's wrong but it's also wrong to tell them to "get another job" after you've taken advantage of their unfair situation. When you eat at an establishment like that, that's the social contract you enter. If you don't like that system then, actually, I suggest you eat at a different place. There are restaurants even in the US that don't do the tipping system. If it's wrong not to pay them fairly then it's at least as wrong to take advantage of the fact that they aren't - and even more so to add insult to injury.

I should add that I'm quite aware (as someone who used to make a living off of the kindness of customers - and spent a good deal of it in keeping the other locals well-tipped) that not everyone in a tip=pay situation is getting the shaft. If managed fairly, it can be like a franchise, like investing in the popularity of the establishment. I'm not against it in principle. Unfortunately, like a lot of raw deals (see MLMs), it doesn't work out as well as they sell it to newcomers. A lot of workers do get ****ed in the world, whether they work in a sweatshop, in a field, or at tables; it's actually kind of mean to say, "Just get another job [loser]."

And if everyone doesn't tip than they just find another way to get the money. A co-worker of mine (who's black) recently told me of an experience that he had in a sports bar that caters primarily to the ghetto crowd, a "black establishment" as he called it. They put an automatic gratuity on ALL CHECKS, even one person getting a drink at the bar. He also overheard one of the girls tell another that she charges guys $10 per hour to rent pool balls, while the establishment only charges 5$ per hour and pockets the difference. My friend is a good tipper, having worked in the restaurant biz for years, but told me that he resents it when places try to nickle and dime extra cash out of you because they assume that you don't tip.

I also worked for a small chain of restaurants that had one location in a really ghetto area and tips were so bad that they had to start cutting like 1% or 2% of the servers' sales back to them so that they could make a decent wage. The way that they made up the difference by by up-charging for everything. You want an extra dressing with your salad? How about some BBQ sauce on the side? Another salsa? That will all be .50 cents a pop. So now instead of trying to make you happy for a good tip your server is now like a used car salesman trying to pad your bill so he gets a higher commission.

[AnglRdr]

Originally Posted by fitz1980

Go into a McDonalds or a movie theater and tell me what you think. Go to a car dealership (where the sales men make a commission off of you) and tell me what you think?

My best car buying experience was at a place where the sales staff make a salary. I will never ever buy a car from a commissioned sales person again.

How's that? I got the exact opposite from that that. If we get rid of tipping and just make the restaurants pay minimum wage it will turn into McDonalds where the people behind the counter don't even speak English.

The sad thing is you're serious, aren't you?

Oh and I'd say that 26% of many restaurants are already staffed with illegals, in the kitchen. The be a kitchen manager in most places that I've worked you pretty much have to speak Spanish.

So all those who aren't English speakers are "illegals?"

Holy racism, Batman!

A co-worker of mine (who's black) recently told me of an experience that he had in a sports bar that caters primarily to the ghetto crowd, a "black establishment" as he called it.

Uhm, really, stop.

[Errata]

Originally Posted by Friends of Alfred

I'm not going to leave a tip if the food or service is poor simply because it's expected.

That can happen from time to time, but for someone like Floater who clearly objects to tipping on the grounds of xenophobia, I wouldn't trust their judgement of what was poor enough not to merit tipping. They'd clearly be looking for excuses to make an issue of it.

[Beejtronic]

Originally Posted by fitz1980

Go into a McDonalds or a movie theater and tell me what you think. Go to a car dealership (where the sales men make a commission off of you) and tell me what you think?

How's that? I got the exact opposite from that that. If we get rid of tipping and just make the restaurants pay minimum wage it will turn into McDonalds where the people behind the counter don't even speak English.

Wrong.

I've never gotten a tip (apart from one or two peoples unwanted change) in the entire time I've worked at my current job. We are widely considered to be have some of the best employees and customer service in the city. Why? Excellent employer, excellent workplace environment, excellent benefits and rewards for doing a good job. If Macdonald's can only hire the lowest echelon of workers, it's because they can't be bothered to give their employees a decent workplace. It has nothing to do with tips or lack there of.

[Beachlife!]

Originally Posted by Beejtronic

Wrong.

I've never gotten a tip (apart from one or two peoples unwanted change) in the entire time I've worked at my current job. We are widely considered to be have some of the best employees and customer service in the city. Why? Excellent employer, excellent workplace environment, excellent benefits and rewards for doing a good job. If Macdonald's can only hire the lowest echelon of workers, it's because they can't be bothered to give their employees a decent workplace. It has nothing to do with tips or lack there of.

McDonalds are designed such that the employees don't need to have any skills to work there. From my experience the service is generally fairly pleasant and efficient and the food surprisingly consisten. If this the the lowest echelon of workers, they're doing rather well with them.

[Simply Madeline]

Originally Posted by fitz1980

A co-worker of mine (who's black) recently told me of an experience that he had in a sports bar that caters primarily to the ghetto crowd, a "black establishment" as he called it.

I also worked for a small chain of restaurants that had one location in a really ghetto area and tips were so bad that they had to start cutting like 1% or 2% of the servers' sales back to them so that they could make a decent wage.

I am speechless (type-less?).

Am I the only one who enjoyed waiting tables, and who became a waitron specifically because I could make significantly more than minimum wage?

[Beachlife!]

Originally Posted by Simply Madeline

....Am I the only one who enjoyed waiting tables, and who became a waitron specifically because I could make significantly more than minimum wage?

Nope, almost every server I've known enjoyed the tips and often bragged about how much they could make on a good night. I've known multiple people who found it hard to take a job in their field of choice because it would require an initial pay cut.

[AnglRdr]

Originally Posted by Simply Madeline

I am speechless (type-less?).

Am I the only one who enjoyed waiting tables, and who became a waitron specifically because I could make significantly more than minimum wage?

I loved having cash every day. Especially that year before I joined the Navy, and just needed beer and gas money. Plus, even if I had a bad table (for me it was usually Canadian tourists who I think did not know what the tipping guidelines were), I rarely had an entirely bad shift.

[ganzfeld]

The difference between good service and bad is training, not tipping. You can't compare a fast food place with an auto dealer. Also, working on commission is not even remotely similar to tipping.

I have the feeling that if someone thinks one gets good service by commission or by tipping that they're talking about the kind of patronizing and cloying service that actually just annoys me. I don't need a (fake) smile and an "Awesome!"

It's true you can get good service under that system. As I said, it feels great to be able to reward good service. But you really have to think about whether voluntary payment is a good idea. It amounts to working for almost nothing and relying on charity. That's what it should be called instead of gratuity: "charity". Basically, having to beg for ones pay even after working.

[Christie]

Originally Posted by AnglRdr

I loved having cash every day. Especially that year before I joined the Navy, and just needed beer and gas money. Plus, even if I had a bad table (for me it was usually Canadian tourists who I think did not know what the tipping guidelines were), I rarely had an entirely bad shift.

Don't make excuses for them AnglRdr. Canadians have the same tipping guidelines that Americans do but we've got our share of cheapskates who don't think those guidelines apply to them when they eat out. Sadly, I am related to a few like this and eating out with them is a pain in the a**.

[AnglRdr]

Originally Posted by Christie

Don't make excuses for them AnglRdr. Canadians have the same tipping guidelines that Americans do but we've got our share of cheapskates who don't think those guidelines apply to them when they eat out. Sadly, I am related to a few like this and eating out with them is a pain in the a**.

I was unaware; granted, this was 20 years ago or so, so maybe things have changed?

[ganzfeld]

The interesting thing about the McDonalds discussion is that in countries where there is no (expected) tipping, even the McDonalds service is better! I don't want to jump to the conclusion that workers in tipping countries have come to expect that if they aren't getting paid extra for giving good service then they don't have to give it. However, the evidence certainly doesn't support the hypothesis that tipping leads to better service.

[stalker]

Originally Posted by annabohly

As far as I know , servers/ waiters/waitresses are the only workers who do not get minimum wage.

Do you mean that the others (in other customer facing jobs) who do get minimum wage don't get tips or that they get tips above that? Either way, do you get better service from the ones that do get tips?

Originally Posted by annabohly

IME some of the salry/wage earners do slack off and do the minimum as well as others go above whats expected of them.

Moreso than waiters who, even after giving poor service, get 10-15% tips?

Originally Posted by fitz1980

Go into a McDonalds or a movie theater and tell me what you think. Go to a car dealership (where the sales men make a commission off of you) and tell me what you think?

As much as I'd love to pop across the pond to eat crap food, watch a film and buy a car, I think it would be easier to have it described to me

Also, I can't quite work out what it is you're saying. Generally in McDonalds over here the service is acceptable and quick (I do only ever go in for McFlurries myself, but friends will have more). In movie theaters the staff are knowledgeable about the films, are more than happy to give refunds, exchange tickets, etc, when it's been needed and are very friendly. Car dealers working on commission come across as sleazy, manipulative sods. Those things for me all go against what I think you were trying to say!

[ganzfeld]

Originally Posted by stalker

As much as I'd love to pop across the pond to eat crap food, watch a film and buy a car, I think it would be easier to have it described to me

Lazy. Research takes work, you know.

[Beejtronic]

Originally Posted by Beachlife!

McDonalds are designed such that the employees don't need to have any skills to work there. From my experience the service is generally fairly pleasant and efficient and the food surprisingly consisten. If this the the lowest echelon of workers, they're doing rather well with them.

I said "if," as I was going on from fitz1980's example. Personally, I've had both bad and good service at MacDonald's, depending on the person and location.

[Christie]

Originally Posted by Beejtronic

I said "if," as I was going on from fitz1980's example. Personally, I've had both bad and good service at MacDonald's, depending on the person and location.

While this is probably true for most restaurants I really notice in McDonalds that the management definitely sets the tone for the kind of service you get. If I'm waiting on line and I can hear the manager yelling at the employees odds are better than good that the service I get will reflect that. And I don't blame the servers.

[fitz1980]

Originally Posted by stalker

Also, I can't quite work out what it is you're saying. Generally in McDonalds over here the service is acceptable and quick (I do only ever go in for McFlurries myself, but friends will have more). In movie theaters the staff are knowledgeable about the films, are more than happy to give refunds, exchange tickets, etc, when it's been needed and are very friendly. Car dealers working on commission come across as sleazy, manipulative sods. Those things for me all go against what I think you were trying to say!

No you were on a similar page as me; you just didn't get it because you didn't get my point. I'm sorry, I spoke from a very USA-centric POV in trying to make said point. Over here McDonalds workers can barely even speak English in many places that I go into. As for movie theaters; I used to work in one, at a time/place when it was staffed by a majority of under-20 workers. The low pay combined with the seeming endless stupidity of the average movie goer lead to me and my co-workers acting much different than I later acted when I got into food service.

As for car dealers, you hit my point right on the head. Car dealers are paid on a commission from their sale to you. My point was that sales people are often the antithesis to tipped servers. In many places tipped servers even try to rip off the company for the customers' benefit for a good tip. Bartenders will give good customers free drinks even though that could cost them their jobs if the boss finds out. I once worked at a place where customers would get downright snippy if you wouldn't try to steal them a basked of Croissants, and make no mistake it was stealing according to company policy, and let them have it for free. Compare that to a car dealership where the sales person my well try to con you into spending an extra $1,000 on a car with a better stereo system when he knows full well that you could get the same stereo upgrade to the cheaper car at Hi-Fi buys for $150. So why does he try to con you into paying $1,000 more, because he's got a commission based on a percentage of your sale riding on it.

[lord_feldon]

Originally Posted by fitz1980

I'm sorry, I spoke from a very USA-centric POV in trying to make said point. Over here McDonalds workers can barely even speak English in many places that I go into.

That's not a USA-centric POV. At best, it's an Atlanta (and wherever else you've performed rigorous language tests and citizenship checks on workers)-centric POV.

[Beachlife!]

Originally Posted by lord_feldon

That's not a USA-centric POV. At best, it's an Atlanta (and wherever else you've performed rigorous language tests and citizenship checks on workers)-centric POV.

Absolutely agree. I've been to McDonalds all over the country and I can't say I've come across any in which the person I dealt with had problems with the language. Even when I enconter accents they are usually regional variations of American english, not foreign accents.

[ganzfeld]

Last time I was in the US, the man at the fast food place handled an order in Spanish and then handled mine in English, seamlessly. Which is not a bad thing in terms of customer service.

Slightly OT story: Over the weekend we went out to lunch way out in the country and the waiter insisted on serving me in English, which seemed to take a great effort. (I might have even been offended at this kind of presumption, at one time.) Smallganz and I tried to let him know politely that we don't have any problem using Japanese but he seemed not to notice. So I gave up and spoke English with him. (Smallganz spoke Japanese very clearly - as if to send a message!) It was probably a good opportunity for him since so few foreigners get out there. Otherwise, he was a very good waiter. I didn't give him any tip, of course, because I've never even seen anyone give anyone a tip in any ordinary restaurant. I'm sure they wouldn't even know how to handle it. The waiter probably wouldn't be able to accept it for himself. It would be a hundred times more confusing than just using English. But we didn't need a tip to let him know we liked the service and he didn't need a tip to get the money he earned.