HIV does not cause AIDS

[Mr. Billion]

http://www.duesberg.com/

Peter Duesberg, a professor of molecular and cell biology at UC of Berkeley, claims that HIV does not cause AIDS. AIDS is caused instead by drug use and malnutrition, he says. He also claims that the antiretrovirals used to treat AIDS actually cause AIDS.

In his FAQ, he writes (Item #9) that HIV-positive people who are still healthy must not use antiretrovirals or recreational drugs.

But surely there must be healthy AIDS patients who do use anti-retrovirals like AZT. And there must be AIDS patients who have never used drugs. Infants are often given AIDS from their mother.

And how common is it for people to be HIV-positive but never develop AIDS?

What's the best evidence against Duesberg's claims?

[Nick Theodorakis]

This old thing? His claims have been thoroughly debunked years ago (see this 1994(!) review issue in Science)and subsequent data only improves the HIV-AIDS link.

The wiki article on AIDS denialism is a reasonable entry into the field; it has a lot of references and external links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIDS_denialism


See also:

http://www.aidstruth.org/

Nick

[JoeBentley]

The Duesberg Hypothesis stumbles right out of the gate because its based on a provably false assumption, that AIDS is caused by recreational drugs and anti-virals. Seeing as how they are people all over the world with AIDS that have have never taken a recreational drug and who aren't on anti-virals, he's wrong.

In order to make this theory work, Duesberg actually has to claim that there is no AIDS in Africa which is somewhat like claiming there is no water in the Pacific.

AIDS Denalism holds a special place in my trifecta of evil stupidity along with Holocaust Denial and Young Earth Creationism. Only very rarely does someone's stupidity literally kill other people.

Robert Gallo, the biomedical researcher who discovered the HIV virus and identified as the infectious agent for AIDS, told Duesberg if he was so sure he could inject an HIV culture into him.

[AnglRdr]

I don't think people with AIDS use ARV therapy--my understanding of them is that their purpose is to stave off opportunistic infections in people with HIV, thus delaying the onset of AIDS.

And people can live for years and years and years now with HIV that never progresses to AIDS. Magic Johnson is the best-known example, who was diagnosed with HIV in 1991.

[Canuckistan]

Originally Posted by AnglRdr

And people can live for years and years and years now with HIV that never progresses to AIDS. Magic Johnson is the best-known example, who was diagnosed with HIV in 1991.

My ex has had HIV for 14 years. And with the meds he has now, he actually has a functioning immune system -- that's how far the treatment has come.

[Nick Theodorakis]

Originally Posted by Canuckistan

My ex has had HIV for 14 years. And with the meds he has now, he actually has a functioning immune system -- that's how far the treatment has come.

My older brother, unfortunately, died of AIDS in the 1980s before there was effective treatment. He didn't take AZT either.

Nick

[Ana Ng]

I'm no scientist, but I vividly recall when HIV first "came out" and people would waste away and die horrifically, immediately. If HIV didn't cause AIDS, what did they die of?

ETA: Relatively simulposted with you, Nick, I'm sorry about your brother.

[A Turtle Named Mack]

Originally Posted by JoeBentley

AIDS Denalism holds a special place in my trifecta of evil stupidity along with Holocaust Denial and Young Earth Creationism. Only very rarely does someone's stupidity literally kill other people.

I have no argument that Young-Earth Creationism is a particularly stupid belief (both factually and theologically, actually). But I don't see how it rises to the evil of demonstrably-wrong beliefs that kill people. A heck of a lot of people claim to be YEC, and then talk about things that happened tens of thousands or millions of years ago, without recognizing a contradiction. There are only a relative few true YEC, and essentially they are harmless cranks, except to the extent that they cause diversion of resources in education to their nutsiness.

[Canuckistan]

Originally Posted by A Turtle Named Mack

There are only a relative few true YEC, and essentially they are harmless cranks, except to the extent that they cause diversion of resources in education to their nutsiness.

Or try to pass legislation based on their beliefs.

[A Turtle Named Mack]

Originally Posted by Canuckistan

Or try to pass legislation based on their beliefs.

Yeah, but still, such legislation is about as meaningful as King Canute commanding the tide not to rise.

[Lainie]

Originally Posted by A Turtle Named Mack

I have no argument that Young-Earth Creationism is a particularly stupid belief (both factually and theologically, actually). But I don't see how it rises to the evil of demonstrably-wrong beliefs that kill people.

I'm not sure that's what Joe was saying, although I was confused at first, too. I think that although the first sentence of his post describes the "trifecta" of evil stupid beliefs, the second sentence may be directed only at AIDS denialism.

As horrible as Holocaust denial is, I'm not sure how it would kill people either, although maybe I'm missing something.

[A Turtle Named Mack]

Originally Posted by Lainie

I'm not sure that's what Joe was saying, although I was confused at first, too. I think that although the first sentence of his post describes the "trifecta" of evil stupid beliefs, the second sentence may be directed only at AIDS denialism.

As horrible as Holocaust denial is, I'm not sure how it would kill people either, although maybe I'm missing something.

"Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it." Or so it is said. I am concerned that Holocaust denial, or the failure of any group to acknowledge and understand the evils which have occurred (particularly by their own predecessors - it's all too easy to recognize other groups as evil and despise their descendants for it), can lead to repetitions of similar evils.

[JoeBentley]

Originally Posted by Lainie

I'm not sure that's what Joe was saying, although I was confused at first, too. I think that although the first sentence of his post describes the "trifecta" of evil stupid beliefs, the second sentence may be directed only at AIDS denialism.

As horrible as Holocaust denial is, I'm not sure how it would kill people either, although maybe I'm missing something.

Yeah that was the point I was trying to make but failed. My statement was badly worded.

Young Earth Creationism, Holocaust Denial, and AIDS denial are all three intellectually indefensible and cause a lot of secondary damage to our society, but AIDS Denial (which I lump in with Vaccine Denial and other forms of medical denial) is the only one which literally and directly causes people to die.

[Casey]

Originally Posted by JoeBentley

Robert Gallo, the biomedical researcher who discovered the HIV virus and identified as the infectious agent for AIDS, told Duesberg if he was so sure he could inject an HIV culture into him.

Of course, Duesberg won't take him up on that. He's healthy, so it wouldn't prove a thing.

HIV infection leading to AIDS in the absence of some hefty medical support is about as well supported by literature as gravity. It has satisfied Koch's Postulates over and over again. How exactly anyone who knows anything of medicine or biology can refute that with a straight face is beyond me.

[zman977]

Originally Posted by Casey

Of course, Duesberg won't take him up on that. He's healthy, so it wouldn't prove a thing.

HIV infection leading to AIDS in the absence of some hefty medical support is about as well supported by literature as gravity. It has satisfied Koch's Postulates over and over again. How exactly anyone who knows anything of medicine or biology can refute that with a straight face is beyond me.

I think it is because some people are so convinced they are right that you can give them all the facts you want to refute what they are saying and they will still believe that they are right.

[DawnStorm]

I remember back in the late 80s/early 90s hearing about something called Aids Related Complex. What was that? I also remember hearing scientists hoping that HIV would get to the point where it could be controlled by various meds/med combos; it looks like we've gotten to that point.

[Sister Ray]

Originally Posted by JoeBentley

AIDS Denalism holds a special place in my trifecta of evil stupidity along with Holocaust Denial and Young Earth Creationism. Only very rarely does someone's stupidity literally kill other people.

Would you add anti-vaccine lunacy to the list of those?

Sister "i would myself" Ray

[Ali Infree]

I'd like to see his grant applications for testing HIV on himself. I'd be willing to bet that he asked for an unreasonable sum.

Or an untenable hypothesis in general. Usually these grants are for science research, not NSFBKing stupidity.

Did I say that out loud?

Ali

[zerocool]

Yeah this a$$hole is a joke and his theories are not respected by anyone I know on campus. Sometimes tenure is a double edged sword.