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Old 15 June 2007, 10:00 AM
King_Crimson King_Crimson is offline
Join Date: 13 March 2006
Location: Victoria, Australia
Posts: 82

Originally Posted by ganzfeld View Post
Yes. I simply meant that the eaarly Islam incorporated rights that were unknown to women in many other contemporary societies. (As I understand it, at least some of those rights were a continuation of previous soceities in that area.) Most sources I can find (that I consider to be unbiased) claim that Islam became more and more oppressive to women after its first century. But I'm willing to admit that I could easily be wrong about that.

I wanted to say that I don't think it's right to say Islam maintains a relationship with women that is 13 centuries old because that relationship has varied greatly during those centuries and continues to vary greatly from place to place and people to people in the Muslim world. I agree with the general criticism about women's rights but I don't think it helps anyone to oversimplify the situation by implying (wrongly) that all of Islam has been a catatonic and uniformly bad state of affairs regarding women's rights for the past 13 centuries. (Maybe I'm just being pedantic. After all, it is true that, in general, the record of women's rights under Islam has been and continues to be very poor.)

Ah no worries; thanks for the clarification. However I am talking about "True Islam" as it relates to the command to follow Muhammad's example. Muhammad said that anyone who innovated Islam or the Quran (to be anything different to the example that he set) would end up in hell.

This is why I look to what Muhammad said/did in order to say what Islam is and isn't (according to my current knowledge; I too can be wrong). Muhammad, after all, was the lone person who heard this Allah and revealed the Quran to mankind.

It is interesting to note that Muhammad's first, wife, Khadija, was a successful and independent businesswomen. When she was alive, Muhammad's prophethood was under her rules. She wouldn't allow woman oppression and playing 'second chair' to the man whether he's right or wrong. She called the shots and was very very wealthy.

When she died, Muhammad pushed women down and introduced all the oppressive measures.

Originally Posted by Blue Star
Indeed, but you haven't taken them "directly from the Islamic texts" then, as you claimed - in a thread concerned with different views on how to translate them into English I thought that was a point worth making.
No worries. Would you like to discuss the Arabic (Quran/ahadith/Tafseer/Sira)? Was there something I said that you do not believe is correct? Regarding the meaning of the word darb, I provided an article (IIRC) above that deals exhaustively with the nuances of darb and its contexts, leading conclusively to the meaning in 4:34.

Anyway thanks.


ETA: Yes here it is again:

Last edited by King_Crimson; 15 June 2007 at 10:01 AM. Reason: adding link
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