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thorny locust 28 November 2017 05:33 PM

Seaboe, I think you've got your example people mixed up, don't you? Cis women are women who are female on their birth certificates and also in their identification. XX women are probably cis, but chromosomes don't always match genital appearance at birth, which is what gender assignments are usually made by.

I don't see how it's enforceable in practice except by posting guards outside all multi-stall bathroom doors to either check ID, and/or make everybody drop their pants outside the john to show their genitals. The first doesn't work for the intended purpose if some people's ID's have been changed to reflect the new/more accurate gender. And the second doesn't work for the intended purpose if people have had surgery and/or are intersex. And of course neither of them works for any purpose because, even aside from privacy issues, who's going to pay for all of those guards? [ETA: plus which, of course, neither of them works because either will result in some people being allowed only into the women's room who will be taken by other users for men, and vice versa.]

A law saying people had to use the bathroom designed for the gender they're presenting as would solve some of those problems, but (aside from not satisfying the people who are trying to jam everybody into one of two boxes) would create a new set. What about people who present ambiguously? And how are you going to define presentation? I mean, I am very cis female (though it's true I've never had my DNA checked.) But my outer clothing is often work pants and shirt and boots designed for men. If I weren't large breasted, I might well confuse people. And I know flat chested cis females who dress similarly.

When you add on to all of this the fact that at least a large part of the reason for separating the genders in bathrooms was a presumption that people couldn't be sexually attracted to others of the same gender, and that this is obviously not true . . . it seems to me that we need to provide a reasonable degree of individual privacy in bathrooms etc., and then stop worrying about who's using which one. Everybody uses the same bathrooms in houses, on planes, etc. anyway.

GenYus234 28 November 2017 05:51 PM

I refer the right honorable gentleperson to the answer I gave some moments ago.

First off, you have to remember that ultimately this is about using fear to whip up a group against a visible other that can be vilified. Actual practicality doesn't figure into it.

Then you have to recall that the politicians who do the whipping often have a mindview that jams everyone into pigeonholes with no wiggle room. So anyone who isn't gender normative is also wrong and needs to fix that. For example, they'd probably say that you wouldn't have a problem if you dress in skirts and blouses like a woman is supposed to do (and if you need to wear pants for you job, you aren't in the correct job for a woman).

ETA: I understand the theory behind pointing out the inherit problems in the idea, but if the nasty things it would do to a transgendered person's psyche aren't part of the calculation, I doubt logistical issues would hold sway.

crocoduck_hunter 28 November 2017 06:40 PM

Don't a lot of European countries have unisex bathrooms?

thorny locust 28 November 2017 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GenYus234 (Post 1965196)
ETA: I understand the theory behind pointing out the inherit problems in the idea, but if the nasty things it would do to a transgendered person's psyche aren't part of the calculation, I doubt logistical issues would hold sway.

Not with the people doing the whipping-up, no. With some of the people they're trying to get whipped up, it may be a different matter.

Die Capacitrix 28 November 2017 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crocoduck_hunter (Post 1965206)
Don't a lot of European countries have unisex bathrooms?

Yes and no.

The trains in Switzerland have unisex bathrooms and there is a suggestion to change this. (sorry, no cite)

In the Luzern train station there is a public bathroom, which you have to pay for, which offers individual toilet stalls with fully closing doors and shared hand-washing facilities with urinals through a separate entrance, as the urinals are cheaper.

A restaurant re-opened after a renovation with a unisex WC. There was a lot of drama, partially because it is illegal. (Article in German) The discussion is still going on, the restaurant is still open with only a unisex WC, and this will probably take some time before it gets resolved.

It appears this is not just Luzern, but Swiss-wide, but just for restaurants. Trains aren't covered.

Here in Switzerland I've been to a number of public places where the facilities for women was woefully inadequate, and the women started using the men's room, without anyone blinking an eye. In the U.S. someone might decide to post a guard. Maybe.

(Now that I've typed this, I think I might have written something similar before.)

Lainie 28 November 2017 07:44 PM

ISTR stories of women being ejected from establishments or even fined ("disorderly conduct") for using the men's restroom. Ridiculous BS, IMO.

GenYus234 28 November 2017 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thorny locust (Post 1965211)
Not with the people doing the whipping-up, no. With some of the people they're trying to get whipped up, it may be a different matter.

YMMV, but I would say that the people they are whipping up would be even less likely to think of the practicality of it. The politicians are doing it as a thought-out process, the rabble is reacting solely on emotion.

Seaboe Muffinchucker 28 November 2017 07:46 PM

Die Capacitrix,
You mean they're debating making the potties on the train itself be reserved for a particular sex? And they expect people of the "wrong" sex to actually go to a less convenient potty, just because they didn't select a seat close enough to the right one?

I've never been on a train, airplane or bus that had anything other than unisex bathrooms.

Seaboe

Lainie 28 November 2017 07:48 PM

Planes and buses have unisex bathrooms. It makes perfect sense to me for trains to have them, for pretty much the same reasons.

WildaBeast 28 November 2017 07:55 PM

Interestingly Interjet, which I've heard described as "Mexico's JetBlue", has a designated women's toilet on their planes. As far as I know the other toilets are all unisex, though.

thorny locust 28 November 2017 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GenYus234 (Post 1965218)
YMMV, but I would say that the people they are whipping up would be even less likely to think of the practicality of it. The politicians are doing it as a thought-out process, the rabble is reacting solely on emotion.

The politicians are very likely not interested in the practicality; they're interested in votes. They may even be counting on being prevented by the courts, and/or opponents, from ever having to deal with the practicality. (I strongly suspect that's what happened with the Republicans and the ACA. They didn't have an alternative plan because they didn't expect to need one; they didn't think Trump was going to win either.)

I don't like referring to large blocks of the voting public as "the rabble", or assuming that all of a very large group of people are reacting "solely on emotion" -- let alone that the ones opposing them aren't acting also on emotion. Without emotion, none of us are capable of wanting anything: not justice, and not dinner. But, having said all that: for those who are acting purely on the imagined emotional shock of finding A Man in the bathroom designated for women, it may be useful to call on the emotional shock of imagining themselves having to prove their gender, and their small children's gender, before being allowed to go pee. Or, for that matter, the emotional shock of looking at their tax bill, after their municipality hired enough police to stand outside all the public bathrooms in the city.

Don Enrico 29 November 2017 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crocoduck_hunter (Post 1965206)
Don't a lot of European countries have unisex bathrooms?

Public toilets in Germany are women's and men's toilets. The exeption are planes, trains and very small eating establishments (the law in Hamburg says: up to 50 squaremeters eating area) that have only one toilet stall, which obviously has to be unisex.

Toilets at the workplace are gendered in bigger organisations. Small companies - a small office or something like a car repair shop - sometimes have only one toilet. In the past, this fact has been used as an argument why a small repair shop can't possibly take on a woman as an apprentice to become a mechanic, because "where would she go to pee?!?". :(

Lainie 29 November 2017 01:29 PM

How can a woman and a man share a dwelling? Where will the woman go when she needs to pee?

kitap 29 November 2017 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crocoduck_hunter (Post 1965206)
Don't a lot of European countries have unisex bathrooms?

The lobbies of the hotels we stayed at in Florence and Venice did.

Die Capacitrix 29 November 2017 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kitap (Post 1965266)
The lobbies of the hotels we stayed at in Florence and Venice did.

My Italian coworker's eyes cannot roll back into his head enough, when he hears about some of the Swiss narrowmindedness.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Enrico (Post 1965254)
Toilets at the workplace are gendered in bigger organisations. Small companies - a small office or something like a car repair shop - sometimes have only one toilet. In the past, this fact has been used as an argument why a small repair shop can't possibly take on a woman as an apprentice to become a mechanic, because "where would she go to pee?!?". :(

Same in many parts of Switzerland. :(

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seaboe Muffinchucker (Post 1965219)
Die Capacitrix,
You mean they're debating making the potties on the train itself be reserved for a particular sex? And they expect people of the "wrong" sex to actually go to a less convenient potty, just because they didn't select a seat close enough to the right one?

I've never been on a train, airplane or bus that had anything other than unisex bathrooms.

Seaboe

Found an article in English. New high-speed train to go through the new Gotthard tunnel.
Quote:

In order to keep passengers occupied and happy on long trips through tunnels, the Giruno also features a range of additional amenities: a 3G/4G mobile communications amplifier, sockets at every seat, large luggage racks and separate toilets for men and women, as well as special toilets for disabled passengers.
And in German
Quote:

Er wird ab 2019 auf der Gotthardlinie der SBB fahren – und bietet eine interessante Neuerung: Im Giruno wird es «WC-Inseln» geben. Jede Insel besteht aus einem WC für alle, einem WC für Frauen sowie einem Pissoir.
Rough translation: As of 2019 the train will run on the SBB Gotthard line and offers an interesting novelty: In the Giruno train there will be a "bathroom island". Each island offers a bathroom for everyone (actually for disabled), a bathroom for women and a urinal for men.

ganzfeld 29 November 2017 08:25 PM

Many facilities around here have at least one toilet for everyone. People generally leave it open for the disabled or people with small children but anyone can use it.

Lainie 29 November 2017 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Die Capacitrix (Post 1965320)
And in German
Rough translation: As of 2019 the train will run on the SBB Gotthard line and offers an interesting novelty: In the Giruno train there will be a "bathroom island". Each island offers a bathroom for everyone (actually for disabled), a bathroom for women and a urinal for men.

So, if a man has to defecate while on the train, he'd need to use the "for everyone"/disabled bathroom?

ganzfeld 29 November 2017 10:08 PM

Reminds me of a funny situation like that here, many years ago, where the western-style toilet was marked with a "woman" pictogram and the urinal with "man". I don't know how we all knew that just meant urinal vs. toilet (not that men couldn't use the toilet) but it never even occurred to me until a foreign man who was staying there whispered in an embarrassed (and in my memory slightly desperate) tone "Psst, hey, Ganz, where are, uh, men supposed to go to, um, defecate??" :lol: Anyway, it's not at all uncommon here that one bathroom be for all, one for women, and sometimes a urinal, or not. I think that's a pretty reasonable arrangement. (Just my two cents. Maybe some men feel cheated or whatever.)

Seaboe Muffinchucker 30 November 2017 03:02 PM

The English article Die Capacitrix linked to made it sound like they think this separate bathroom thing is the height of luxury.

Seaboe

WildaBeast 30 November 2017 08:35 PM

TYSHTTP: Amazon reducing the price one day after you bought it is not a reason to give a book a one star review. You're supposed to be reviewing the book, not Amazon.


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