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-   -   “What are Golliwogs and are they racist?” (http://message.snopes.com/showthread.php?t=96941)

crocoduck_hunter 12 September 2018 04:59 PM

It's an especially laughable defense given the Herold Sun's history of (like many Murdock publications) displaying racist caricatures.

Jusenkyo no Pikachu 12 September 2018 05:42 PM

And yet this is the same guy not doing a racism:

http://i64.tinypic.com/2zdr387.jpg

So he knows how to not do racisms, and yet he racismed all over the place. Meanwhile, the Murdoch rag had a hissy fit and tried to claim that if that picture was racist, then some other picture of Pauline Hanson as a toad must have been offensive to everyone who wasn’t Pauline Hanson.

Unfortunately, Pauline Hanson is busy going off at a 9-year-old who is clearly besting her, so everybody is seeing the whataboutism.

And for more on that embarrassment:

https://youtu.be/JJZLywjGET8

ganzfeld 13 September 2018 05:05 AM

If he can draw a reasonable likeness then he should know the difference between that and what he drew. He may not know the origins of that imagery but you don't just start playing a concerto and claim afterwards that you have no idea where it came from - it takes learning and lots of practice, just like drawing a likeness of Franklin.

The fact that the caricature of Williams looks nothing like her (not to mention a white, blonde Osaka) but does look like a minstrel show or old "savage" cartoon - right down to the lips, the hair sticking up, and other detail - speaks volumes. That doesn't happen by accident. It's like a plagiarist saying "well, gee, how did that happen"? (G)You got it from somewhere, that's how. If you really don't know where then I think it's time to accept that you got something you either don't want (we all have; nothing wrong with admitting it and apologizing) or (g) you are a racist.

Jusenkyo no Pikachu 13 September 2018 10:09 AM

So do you think someone should ask next week’s Q&A panel?

I’m just going to assume “How to avoid doing a racism” will be a topic.

ganzfeld 13 September 2018 11:01 AM

There seems to be some context missing in everything you say JP. ;) I have no idea what you're talking about.

Jusenkyo no Pikachu 13 September 2018 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ganzfeld (Post 1987102)
There seems to be some context missing in everything you say JP. ;) I have no idea what you're talking about.

That one just got bogged down in a discussion of koala chlamydia. (Read: should be on the first page here in Soapbox Derby. It’s supposed to be a thread about a political TV show). In fact, that point earlier in this thread when I quoted Bob Katter? That’s from the same show.

Anyway, this week, comedy program The Weekly covered the fiasco in their opening run-down of the news. And yes, that (and another clip about racist treatment of Adam Goodes) is the source of my odd usage of the term “racism”.

https://youtu.be/RvYWjlWeRvQ

(I should note that the punchline is a vulgar pun. I won’t spoil it in case Gutter Monkey hasn’t seen it).

Incidentally, I’m getting the impression that upbringing does factor into some of the arguments. While you are likely right that Knight should have seen racist caricatures and known how they’d be offensive, he was also studying caricature as early as 1980, when access to racist caricatures was likely restricted in a half-hearted attempt at not-racism.

ganzfeld 13 September 2018 04:06 PM

Still can't decipher most of that.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jusenkyo no Pikachu (Post 1987147)
While you are likely right that Knight should have seen racist caricatures and known how they’d be offensive, he was also studying caricature as early as 1980, when access to racist caricatures was likely restricted in a half-hearted attempt at not-racism.

This part however, is simply not correct. I mean I don't get there until the late eighties but even then those were the classics everyone was imitating. That's how they learned. Maybe they didn't show that stuff in public but it's an art that relies very much on copying old styles before developing ones own.

Also, since you failed to in posting his previous work, it's worth mentioning it hasn't even been a month since his last, let's say, ambiguously racist cartoon.

Jusenkyo no Pikachu 14 September 2018 05:23 AM

He would have learned by studying cartoonists like Larry Pickering (who worked for The Australian). His usual style seems rather like Pickering’s:

http://www.original-political-cartoo...dded-off/3547/

(The PM depicted in the image is Malcolm Fraser)

Gutter Monkey 19 September 2018 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gutter Monkey (Post 1986654)
We still get people dressing up in blackface for costume parties

Here's the latest incident:
Quote:

Three Australian amateur league football players have painted their bodies black in a shocking case of Blackface for their club's Mad Monday celebration.

Among the three Tasmanian Penguin Football Club players were two men, Mitch Stanley and Matt Chamberlain, dressed as Serena and Venus Williams.

The third, Beau Grundy, stood between his teammates dressed as Sydney Swans player Aliir Aliir, as they posed for the occasion this week.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...blackface.html

Jusenkyo no Pikachu 19 September 2018 09:36 AM

So the picture was discussed in Q&A here: http://www.abc.net.au/tv/qanda/txt/s4881601.htm#

(At the 42-minute mark. It’s the same episode I linked in the “On De-platforming” thread)

To sum up: Elena Jeffcoat (a math teacher recruited to give the general public a voice) and Sisonke Msimang (a writer and political analyst) both thought it was racist. Andrew Neil (BBC Daily Politics presenter) and David Marr (journalist, presenter on Four Corners and Media Watch) would have allowed it, considering that the caricature was of a specific person, not the generic “darky” found in the racist images. And finally, Germaine Greer argued that the cartoon was also sexist.

ganzfeld 19 September 2018 09:46 AM

Considering the effort to make their skin absolutely black, as no amount of melanin could ever, it's beyond comprehension that anyone in 2018 anywhere in the world can see this as not generically racist. Part of the problem with blackface is the black part! Not that brown would have helped much in this case because WTF - how are two black tennis payers automatically the Williams?? Are they not aware there are other black tennis players? Osaka is one! Sheesh. This is not a matter of opinion. There is a right and a wrong here.

Gutter Monkey 19 September 2018 11:40 AM

Here's a link to a different article about the latest blackface incident in case people don't want to give clicks to the Daily Mail: https://www.theage.com.au/national/o...19-p504qf.html

The comments are pretty much exactly what you'd expect:
Quote:

Just because there is a history of racism of blackface does not mean it is racist in the present.
Quote:

So if i was black and was to paint myself white to be like a white person this would be offensive?? Oh please........what is happening to this ridiculous PC society?
The other article I posted has a whole bunch of similar comments:
Quote:

So why is it ok to whiteface at the Emmys then?
(Note that it definitely wasn't Donald Glover wearing whiteface at the Emmys as most people have assumed, he was elsewhere in the audience and was later photographed with the person wearing that makeup.)

Alarm 19 September 2018 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gutter Monkey (Post 1987584)
(Note that it definitely wasn't Donald Glover wearing whiteface at the Emmys as most people have assumed, he was elsewhere in the audience and was later photographed with the person wearing that makeup.)

And that wasn't actually "whiteface" either, as it was apparently a person made up as a character from the show Atlanta (which glover plays). I will leave off discussion of whether dressing up as someone dressed up in white/black face is itself said act...

Darth Credence 19 September 2018 03:00 PM

How in the world would dressing up as someone who wears blackface/whiteface not blackface/whiteface? If it isn't, then someone donning blackface to be Serena Williams could just say they were dressed as Mitch Stanley dressed as Serena Williams, so it's fine. (If Stanley was dressed as Venus, then fill in Matt Chamberlain, just going off of GM's post.)

Gutter Monkey 19 September 2018 04:29 PM

Blackface isn't just white people putting on dark makeup, African Americans performers "blacked up" with burnt cork and painted on giant comical lips as part of minstrel shows as far back as the 1840s.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minstr...lack_minstrels

African Americans performing in whiteface makeup goes back to at least the 1890s. Lew Dockstander (one of Al Jolson's contemporaries) was one such performer. More recently, comedians like Eddie Murphy, Dave Chappelle and the Wayans brothers have also performed in whiteface.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lew_Dockstader


(Note that I'm not drawing an equivalence between blackface and whiteface, or saying that the existence of POC blackface performers adds any legitimacy to the practice)

Darth Credence 19 September 2018 05:50 PM

Sure, I get that. My point was, though, that if the original is blackface, I don't see any way that dressing up as that original is not also blackface. Even if it was, say, a black man dressing as Al Jolson in blackface, they'd still have to make themselves up to get the same look, and as you said, blackface isn't just white people wearing dark makeup.

GenYus234 19 September 2018 06:02 PM

Like much else, context is important. For example, this is not blackface.

Gutter Monkey 19 September 2018 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth Credence (Post 1987643)
Sure, I get that. My point was, though

I was replying to Alarm's post

damian 20 September 2018 05:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ganzfeld (Post 1987089)
(not to mention a white, blonde Osaka)

But she has a blond pony tail. (Isn't that cultural appropriation?)
And the uproar over a cartoon is simply a distraction from Serena Williams' disgraceful tantrum. It's the same as trump changing the narrative over kneeling during the national anthem.

Sylvanz 20 September 2018 06:05 AM

Then perhaps the cartoonist should not have published such a blatantly racist image. He seems to be the one distracting attention away from Ms Williams disgraceful behavior.

Not a tennis watcher what did she do? Anything worse then McEnroe did in his time?


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