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-   -   Flat Earthers plan a cruise that uses charts of a round planet to navigate (http://message.snopes.com/showthread.php?t=97267)

TallGeekyGirl 13 January 2019 10:50 PM

Flat Earthers plan a cruise that uses charts of a round planet to navigate
 
Quote:

Flat Earthers from around the <del>globe</del> disc are planning an all-out cruise for the 2020 Flat Earther International Conference. Promised to be the "biggest, boldest, best adventure yet," the cruise will bring like-minded people together who all believe the planet is a disc protected by an ice wall barrier. There's only one tiny hole in this plan ó the cruise ship relies on navigational equipment based on a spherical Earth.

https://mashable.com/article/flat-ea...ce-cruise-gps/

RichardM 13 January 2019 11:28 PM

Let a flat earther try to plot the course. And use their own maps.

ganzfeld 14 January 2019 02:13 AM

(To the OP, not you RichardM...) So? Why is it a "hole" in their plan? No one is asking them to do the navigation. We all use relativity in our phones to navigate but it doesn't care what we "believe". 99% of the people who read this and have a gaffaw about it don't know the first thing about what makes navigating on a sphere different from a plane. I mean, I like a low-brow fart joke as much as the next one but its only cool if it comes with the understanding that we all do it. Otherwise, meh, no better than thinking the world is flat.

Gutter Monkey 14 January 2019 05:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ganzfeld (Post 1994460)
99% of the people who read this and have a gaffaw about it don't know the first thing about what makes navigating on a sphere different from a plane.

Nah, you just have to look at a flat earth map to know that navigating on a disc would be wildly different from navigating on a sphere, even if they didn't know the exact details.

https://i.imgur.com/AXP8Nhm.jpg

You can see just from looking at it that direct flights from, say Australia to South America or Africa would be wildly different than on a globe.
(Note: many flat earthers explain this anomaly by denying that 12hr direct flights from Australia to South America actually happen)

ganzfeld 14 January 2019 06:44 AM

Big deal. Being able to repeat some simple fact one learned in school is only hardly much more impressive than repeating the wrong fact learned from elsewhere. Any one of us can say E=mc<sup>2</sup> and say it "easy to see that energy is mass time the speed of light squared". Far fewer can put that to some useful end such as navigation. (Even though, again, our phones use relativity daily if we use GPS.) I don't think it's anything to brag about (or to laugh when others get it wrong).

Gutter Monkey 14 January 2019 07:52 AM

Do you have some sort of personal investment in the flat earth issue or are you just being a grumpy jerk over it for no reason?

Flat earth believers are definitely something to laugh about. They're idiots.

ganzfeld 14 January 2019 09:52 AM

People always seem to want to make fun of others irrationalities. I guess as entertainment it's no big deal but it's I do not like the "More Rational Than Thou" movements. "My High Horse is More Scientific Than Yours" ... etc.

Why is it OK to laugh at idiots? More than, for example, other mentally challenged people.

Gutter Monkey 14 January 2019 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ganzfeld (Post 1994467)
People always seem to want to make fun of others irrationalities. I guess as entertainment it's no big deal but it's I do not like the "More Rational Than Thou" movements. "My High Horse is More Scientific Than Yours" ... etc.

Why is it OK to laugh at idiots? More than, for example, other mentally challenged people.

You are aware that you're currently posting on the Snopes.com forums message board, the website that was founded on dissecting and dismissing irrationalities (usually with a humorous bent), right??? We don't make allowances for people who spread dumb urban legends on the internet, holding them accountable for dumb irrational beliefs which are actively holding back the advancement of humanity as a species is the entire point of this website.

Flat earth 'science' is a conspiracy theory that's roughly the equivalent of Young Earth Creationism and they regularly dismiss counter arguments such as "Satellites wouldn't work on a flat earth model" by claiming that satellites don't exist and are a conspiracy cooked up by the government/Big Science. That goes beyond simple dumb irrationality.


Also I note you avoided answering my question about your personal stakes in this.

ganzfeld 14 January 2019 10:31 AM

Yeah. You know, that's why I liked it. They (almost) never poked fun. (The humour was there sometimes but it went away for the most part. I took that as a smart editorial decision.) We did here a lot; I did too. But the ULRP has rarely been a place of ridicule, just these are the facts and evidence. In fact, I saw the Lost Legends Archives as going the other way: making fun of people who think they know the answer because they read it. Also not necessary but, again, with an introspective reading, it reminds me, hey, I'm not any smarter than anyone else just because I happen to have found the ULRP.

I think one huge (if not the main) reason nonsense pervades our information world is because everyone has someone else to make fun of. So few people are willing to say, "How am I being a Flat Earther?" or "What can I learn about why these people think the way they do that would help better understand why we all are fools from time to time?"

ETA I don't understand your "personal stakes" question. Who ever said I have any personal stakes. Do you have?

ETA 2 Also, not that I expect an answer but I want to know: What's the difference between making fun of people who are supposedly just foolish and making fun of people with mental disabilities? If there is one, whatever, but it still implies the person making fun is somehow able to tell the difference. That itself could be a laughable form of mental disability if I weren't prone to do so myself. I get it. It seems OK. I'm not convinced.

TallGeekyGirl 14 January 2019 10:50 AM

Perhaps I should have put this into Amusement Park or something.

ganzfeld 14 January 2019 10:59 AM

I Watched an Entire Flat Earth Convention ó Here's What I Learned
 
https://www.livescience.com/62506-fl...onvention.html
Quote:

Let me begin by stating quickly that I'm not really interested in discussing if the earth if flat or not (for the record, I'm happily a "globe earther") Ė and I'm not seeking to mock or denigrate this community. What's important here is not necessarily whether they believe the earth is flat or not, but instead what their resurgence and public conventions tell us about science and knowledge in the 21st century.
I liked this approach more. (I do think ridicule might have its place, for example when trying to circle the wagons, rally the troops, etc - a kind of call to action - but is that really necessary in this case? As entertainment it sometimes works and YMMV but it seems like a way way too easy target. I can almost see Beavis his pal going 'Heh heh. They think it's flat! Heh heh. But they're taking a trip around the globe. Get it?! Heh heh.')

Gutter Monkey 14 January 2019 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ganzfeld (Post 1994469)
ETA I don't understand your "personal stakes" question. Who ever said I have any personal stakes. Do you have?

I've never held any flat earth beliefs and no one I know has either (to my knowledge) so I don't hold any personal stakes in the debate.

I notice you're still avoiding the question. Your anger at this issue and writing off people who laugh at flat earthers as "meh, no better than thinking the world is flat" makes it seem like you have a personal stake in defending flat earth believers, or at least dragging down the people who laugh at them. It's a weird stance to take on the Snopes.com message forum.



Quote:

Originally Posted by ganzfeld (Post 1994469)
ETA 2 Also, not that I expect an answer but I want to know: What's the difference between making fun of people who are supposedly just foolish and making fun of people with mental disabilities? If there is one, whatever, but it still implies the person making fun is somehow able to tell the difference. That itself could be a laughable form of mental disability if I weren't prone to do so myself. I get it. It seems OK. I'm not convinced.

For a start, I'm an Australian and in this country there's precedent that belief in conspiracy theories is prima facie legally distinct from mental illnesses.
http://www.antidiscrimination.justic...f-assumed.aspx
YMMV in other countries, of course.

Believing in conspiracy theories can sometimes be a symptom of underlying mental illness but I think it's disingenuous to assume that's a cause in the majority of cases, unless your definition of 'mental disability' is incredibly loose and vague to the point where it's not really worth bringing up in a rational debate.

There's nothing wrong in making fun of people who are foolish because they should know better, the proof is readily available but they've made a conscious choice to ignore it in favour of weird unproven conspiracy theories.


Have you actually done any reading on flat earth theories? I wouldn't call myself an expert or anything but I've read a whole bunch of their theories and watched a whole bunch of their youtube videos and this stuff is really dumb.

Errata 14 January 2019 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ganzfeld (Post 1994460)
99% of the people who read this and have a gaffaw about it don't know the first thing about what makes navigating on a sphere different from a plane.

Plenty of people would know the first thing. They just wouldn't know the last thing. There are a lot of differences big and small, ranging from the big obvious issues down to the details requiring expert knowledge and practical experience. Some of them an adult should either be able to figure out themselves or at least acknowledge as obvious in retrospect once it's been pointed out to them. I can guarantee that anyone professing Flat Earth ideology has had some of these things pointed out to them, but they've rejected it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ganzfeld (Post 1994462)
Being able to repeat some simple fact one learned in school is only hardly much more impressive than repeating the wrong fact learned from elsewhere.

You are drastically underselling the amount of "wrong" you have to swallow to believe the "fact" that the Earth is flat. You have to be completely delusional and actively reject all sorts of everyday evidence staring you in the face. You have to reject the testimony of any sort of expert who would have to know all about this stuff and have more knowledge on the subject than you. You have to pretty much reject the concept of a shared reality that has any objectively knowable facts, in favor of a solipsistic fantasy universe in which you get to pick and choose whichever rules you find the most fun.

crocoduck_hunter 14 January 2019 11:06 PM

Ganz, you're not going to turn this into another argument about free will, are you?

ASL 14 January 2019 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crocoduck_hunter (Post 1994535)
Ganz, you're not going to turn this into another argument about free will, are you?

Does he have a choice?

*boom* mic drop

ganzfeld 14 January 2019 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gutter Monkey (Post 1994474)
I notice you're still avoiding the question. Your anger at this issue and writing off people who laugh at flat earthers as "meh, no better than thinking the world is flat" makes it seem like you have a personal stake in defending flat earth believers, or at least dragging down the people who laugh at them. It's a weird stance to take on the Snopes.com message forum.

If this forum were about ridicule, I would have left long ago. On the contrary, this is the most thoughtful group of people I've ever known. I don't know what you mean by anger and all that first part. Nothing to do with anything I've said. I also don't understand why you or I would need some "personal stake" to comment on it. I don't know of any for myself.

Quote:

For a start, I'm an Australian and in this country there's precedent that belief in conspiracy theories is prima facie legally distinct from mental illnesses.
Speaking of a lot wrong, I don't know where to begin with this non-sequitur. You base your standards of what's worthy of ridicule on your particular country's law - or any country's law? That's, honestly, a bit worrisome if not ridiculous. We don't need to know the answer to any of the many questions that arise from this statement because you're just grasping for some way of defining a difference, as you have no science to support the claim.

Quote:

Believing in conspiracy theories can sometimes be a symptom of underlying mental illness but I think it's disingenuous to assume that's a cause in the majority of cases, unless your definition of 'mental disability' is incredibly loose and vague to the point where it's not really worth bringing up in a rational debate.
Whether you call it a mental model anomaly or a cognitive anomaly or even mental illness (something I never brought up) is also beside the point. The point is to admit (g)you don't (necessarily) know the difference. Even the experts in cognition don't know exactly what makes the difference. What you know, what we all know about 'mistaken' notions is probably about as much as the Flat Earthers know about geography - enough to make a general map but almost certainly still with many notable gaps and misconceptions. It may be round or flat; there may be a strong delineation or not. We simply don't know enough to say for sure yet.

Quote:

There's nothing wrong in making fun of people who are foolish because they should know better,
I never said it was wrong to make fun of them. I do say it is foolish and we should know better, (It's wrong for me but I definitely do it from time to time too.)

Quote:

Have you actually done any reading on flat earth theories? I wouldn't call myself an expert or anything but I've read a whole bunch of their theories and watched a whole bunch of their youtube videos and this stuff is really dumb.
That's an amazing amount of insight; That was obviously an excellent use of your time. :D

I just read the scientific literature although I have read a lot of other work about observing these groups, such as the one I linked to. I'm interested in the actual science of why people think the way they do, not what's 'dumb' or not. (I mean, you might as well just use the R word. I like a low-brow joke as much as the next guy. But you need to work on the delivery.)

ganzfeld 14 January 2019 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crocoduck_hunter (Post 1994535)
Ganz, you're not going to turn this into another argument about free will, are you?

I don't think it's necessary to point out the lack of evidence for this particular belief at this time. I think this is more a matter of people asserting their own ego. i.e. Not "I've made better choices than these fools" but "I'm so much smarter than these fools." Both are genuine human needs - even though both are rarely supported by any evidence. It's extremely fascinating.

Mouse 15 January 2019 03:08 AM

Iíve wondered how many so-called Flat Earthers really believe all this stuff and how many are 4chan-esque trolls in it for the lulz! I had assumed it was primarily trolls with only a few hardcore true believers, but I have the depressing feeling that I am about to be brutally proven wrong.

Errata 15 January 2019 03:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mouse (Post 1994542)
Iíve wondered how many so-called Flat Earthers really believe all this stuff and how many are 4chan-esque trolls in it for the lulz!

The trolls are definitely a factor, but a shocking proportion of gullible conspiracy nuts are drawn into it for real.

crocoduck_hunter 15 January 2019 04:15 AM

I've met a few. The Dunning-Kruger effect was real strong in all of them. They didn't know anything about any of the different methods that proved that the Earth is round, so they would just discount them as being made up or inaccurate because of "gut feelings" and "common sense." No different from climate change deniers, 9/11 truthers, or YECs.


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