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-   -   Judge to woman in rape case: 'Why couldn't you just keep your knees together?' (http://message.snopes.com/showthread.php?t=94641)

TallGeekyGirl 12 September 2016 07:36 PM

Judge to woman in rape case: 'Why couldn't you just keep your knees together?'
 
Quote:

According to records of the trial, Camp asked her why she didn't "skew her pelvis" or push her bottom into the sink to avoid penetration. He openly wondered, "Why couldn't you just keep your knees together?"
http://www.cnn.com/2016/09/12/world/...rnd/index.html

St. Alia 12 September 2016 07:49 PM

Quote:

On the subject of sex in general, and sex with young women in particular, he said, "Young wom[e]n want to have sex, particularly if they're drunk."
In a different part of the trial, he said "Some sex and pain sometimes go together...that's not necessarily a bad thing."
Camp, 64, ultimately acquitted the man charged with the crime, and then told him:
"I want you to tell your friends, your male friends, that they have to be far more gentle with women. They have to be far more patient. And they have to be very careful. To protect themselves, they have to be very careful."
I'm concerned about the women in the judge's past. Exactly how many women has he raped if this is his mentality about consent?

What a horrifying person.

erwins 12 September 2016 07:55 PM

The good news is that he seems to be getting fired. I don't know how the process works in Canada, but he is currently trying to argue for keeping his job, but not hearing criminal cases, or something like that, after actions have been taken to remove him as a judge. I'll see if I can find a cite later.

quink 12 September 2016 08:04 PM

They're just wrapping up the inquiry on this now. Apparently he's very sorry and didn't know about the history of sex assault law in Canada :rolleyes:

It's chilling to know that there are still people in power who think this way. It's more chilling that it's taken two years to reach the point where he could be removed, and that he managed to move from provincial to federal court in that time. Even if he's learned his lesson and isn't a bad person, I'll be disgusted if this man is allowed to judge anything more than a cactus contest in the future. His lawyer says it was lack of education and ignorance rather than maliciousness. What else might he be ignorant about when he's making judgements?

overyonder 12 September 2016 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by quink (Post 1928327)
Apparently he's very sorry and didn't know about the history of sex assault law in Canada :rolleyes:

He's also not originally from Canada, but South Africa.

OY

thorny locust 12 September 2016 08:12 PM

And the problem is, as St. Alia pointed out, not only with his being a judge, and/or not knowing specifically Canadian law (though both of those certainly make it worse.)

How many people have we still got running around loose who think it can't possibly ever be rape because all a woman has to do is keep her knees together?

quink 12 September 2016 08:17 PM

Did they mention the part where he kept accidentally calling the complainant 'the accused', including in his apology a few days ago?

(to be fair, I'm sure the recent one was a slip of the tongue, but still...)

Dr. Dave 12 September 2016 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by quink (Post 1928327)
His lawyer says it was lack of education and ignorance rather than maliciousness.

How is this a good defense?

Don't throw him off the bench; he is not hateful toward women, just ignorant and unqualified to be a judge."

Also, as others have alluded to, this is not some obscure technical distinction between second degree and third degree something or another. He told a a rape victim she should have scooted her butt into the sink.

GenYus234 12 September 2016 09:03 PM

It is a defense against removing Camp as a judge entirely. The claim is that Camp is ignorant of Canadian criminal law, not all Canadian law. So theoretically Camp could handle civil cases just fine.

quink 12 September 2016 09:09 PM

If you're interested in following along, @markusoff (Jason Markusoff, a local Maclean's reporter) is live tweeting the hearing right now. I'll be interested to see the full article when it comes out.

Lainie 12 September 2016 09:45 PM

Quote:

The South African-born judge said he didn't receive training on sex assault cases. In his legal career, he focused mostly on contract and bankruptcy cases, he said.
"My colleagues knew my knowledge of Canadian law was very minimal. It was non-existent," he said at the hearing Friday. "Please remember I wasn't in this country through the 1960s, '70s and '80s."
:confused: How did he ever get to be a judge?

Alarm 13 September 2016 12:20 PM

I'm more concerned about why a "contract and bankruptcy" judge would think he's qualified to hear a rape case and not recuse himself from hearing it.

That speaks volumes about his character, I think. "I haven't done this before, but how hard can it be, amirite? It's not like anyone will suffer if I get it wrong.":fish:

Lainie 13 September 2016 12:26 PM

He said his knowledge of Canadian law was minimal. I don't see how he was qualified to handle any case in any court.

And was there any reason to believe he'd only have to hear contract and bankruptcy cases in that court?

Don Enrico 14 September 2016 05:44 AM

I once contemplated immigration to Canada, and went as far as checking the Immigration Office web site. It told me quite clearly that as a Germany trained lawyer, I would have no chance to get a resident permit.

I wonder how this guy got a different answer apparently, and a job as a judge on top?

Seaboe Muffinchucker 14 September 2016 02:15 PM

Because South Africa used to be part of the British Empire, and Canada still is (sort of).

Seaboe

Sue 14 September 2016 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Enrico (Post 1928484)
I once contemplated immigration to Canada, and went as far as checking the Immigration Office web site. It told me quite clearly that as a Germany trained lawyer, I would have no chance to get a resident permit.

I wonder how this guy got a different answer apparently, and a job as a judge on top?

I've worked with people who have immigrated here from various parts of Europe including the Netherlands, Italy and Switzerland. I wonder why immigration from Germany, particularly an educated professional, would be discouraged. That doesn't seem fair to me.

Don Enrico 15 September 2016 05:53 AM

From what I understand, Canada encourages immigration of professions they need. Had I been a baker or a joiner, I would probably have been welcomed.

Lawyer probably is a profession that is already common in Canada. Plus, all other professionals - scientists, economists, linguists, whatever - can apply most, if not all of their training and knowledge in any country. Lawyers, on the other hand, are trained in their country's national law, and have to be re-trained for different legal systems.

Additionally, I couldn't claim any knowledgee of French.

htonl 15 September 2016 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seaboe Muffinchucker (Post 1928523)
Because South Africa used to be part of the British Empire, and Canada still is (sort of).

And, to expand on this, because former British colonies have a shared legal history and tradition, with the English common law as a basis, and very similar legal procedures. Courts in Commonwealth countries still quite frequently cite decisions from the courts of other Commonwealth countries as persuasive authority. (South Africa is a little weird though because we also have an admixture of pre-Napoleonic Dutch civil law along with the English common law.)

E. Q. Taft 15 September 2016 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thorny locust (Post 1928330)
How many people have we still got running around loose who think it can't possibly ever be rape because all a woman has to do is keep her knees together?

Well, it might still be rape, but not legitimate rape....

:fish:

Sooeygun 19 September 2016 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lainie (Post 1928346)
:confused: How did he ever get to be a judge?

Appointed by the Harper govt.

http://globalnews.ca/news/2612649/lo...tment-process/

"Camp was among 45 people appointed to the courts by the outgoing Conservative government over a two month span before the federal election in 2015 the most in more than a generation."


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