snopes.com

snopes.com (http://message.snopes.com/index.php)
-   Social Studies (http://message.snopes.com/forumdisplay.php?f=64)
-   -   Charles Manson, leader of murderous cult, dead at 83 (http://message.snopes.com/showthread.php?t=96219)

Psihala 20 November 2017 10:02 AM

Charles Manson, leader of murderous cult, dead at 83
 
Charles Manson, who led deranged followers known as the Manson Family into a series of horrific crimes that haunted Americans for over a generation, died Sunday at a California hospital after being imprisoned for more than 45 years. He was 83 years old.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/charles...lt-dead-at-83/

thorny locust 20 November 2017 02:58 PM

Bye, bye, Charlie.

May every attempt to start a race war fizzle out in jail. Preferably without killing a batch of people first.

UEL 20 November 2017 03:13 PM

Given that there are people out there even still today who consider themselves "Family", I wonder if someone will claim his body and make his burial place a shrine.

I will not shed a tear for him.

Ali Infree 20 November 2017 05:30 PM

Why should anyone shed tears for a psychopath? He made himself into the head of the Family through application of Dale Carnegie techniques (he was a big fan of "How to Win Friends and Influence People") and manipulative tricks he learned from pimps. LSD was just an addition to this malignant stew.

Wish I believed in Hell sometimes.

Ali

E. Q. Taft 20 November 2017 08:18 PM

He also supposedly studied Scientology in prison, and utilized some of its terminology and techniques.

It's sad that there weren't social and psychological services available that might have turned Manson, or some or all of his followers, down a different path -- but that doesn't absolve him, or them, from the responsibility for what they did. So, no, no mourning, but not a great deal of satisfaction, either.

UEL 20 November 2017 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ali Infree (Post 1964720)
Why should anyone shed tears for a psychopath?

Around here it is an expression meaning that there will be no sorrow.

Quote:

He made himself into the head of the Family through application of Dale Carnegie techniques (he was a big fan of "How to Win Friends and Influence People")
Very interesting. From what I've read, he started along the Carnegie path after being in prison. However, I can see its application (maybe learned second hand) in how he did manipulate those around him.

WildaBeast 20 November 2017 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UEL (Post 1964711)
Given that there are people out there even still today who consider themselves "Family", I wonder if someone will claim his body and make his burial place a shrine.

From what I heard on the radio this morning, he has no known living relatives and therefore it's up the California Department of Corrections to decide what to do with his body. From the sound of that it seems like his "family" doesn't legally have any say in the matter.

E. Q. Taft 20 November 2017 09:35 PM

And, thank you, Onion:

‘Piggies’ Written In Blood On Clouds Only Clue In Shocking Murder Of Six Angels

Skeptic 20 November 2017 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by E. Q. Taft (Post 1964743)
It's sad that there weren't social and psychological services available that might have turned Manson, or some or all of his followers, down a different path -- but that doesn't absolve him, or them, from the responsibility for what they did.

I heard a similar argument many years ago, where someone was trying to blame society for a criminal’s action. Another person then pointed out that their grandparents had survived the Nazi concentration camps and didn’t go on to be serial killers. That ended the discussion very quickly.

ganzfeld 20 November 2017 11:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic (Post 1964761)
I heard a similar argument many years ago, where someone was trying to blame society for a criminal’s action. Another person then pointed out that their grandparents had survived the Nazi concentration camps and didn’t go on to be serial killers.

Huh? That's a non-sequitur. That's like someone says "the tire blowout was caused by the road conditions in addition to the tire quality" and someone else says "but this other truck went through ten miles of a foot of mud and didn't blow a single tire". Doesn't even make sense.

Sylvanz 21 November 2017 12:09 AM

I have to agree with Ganz. There is no excuse for what Manson and his followers did. However, there are so many variables at play between these two examples as to make a comparison meaningless.

thorny locust 21 November 2017 03:31 AM

Charles Manson Was Not a Product of the Counterculture

Quote:

with some historical distance, and after Mr. Manson’s death on Sunday at age 83, we can see that the simplistic counterculture dichotomy of “freaks” versus “squares” caused people to lump Mr. Manson in with the freaks (for he certainly wasn’t a square). Apart from the long hair and the casual sex, however, Mr. Manson, who spent much of his life in prison with a swastika carved into his head, had more in common ideologically with far-right groups like the John Birch Society than he did with the anarchic leftism of, say, the Yippies.

Mouse 21 November 2017 03:40 AM

Manson was a chameleon who liked surrounding himself with people and manipulating them to his own ends; it’s as simple as that. If you put him any kind of culture, he would take on whatever guise would best help him get the followers he craved. Since he was in California when the 60s counterculture was en vogue, he became the image of the hippie guru. Probably if he had been dumped into a red state during the Reagan was in office, he might have become the very model of a minister on the Christian Right.

Seaboe Muffinchucker 21 November 2017 02:59 PM

That quote is quite interesting to me, Thorny. I read a lot of true crime, and can't remember ever reading a description of the Family killings that didn't note that Manson was really quite conservative.

Seaboe

UEL 21 November 2017 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mouse (Post 1964782)
Manson was a chameleon who liked surrounding himself with people and manipulating them to his own ends.

But the thing was that he was not a chameleon. He was a charismatic person that preyed upon the weak in a society. What drew people to him was the fact he stood out in society. He stood out from mainstream America, he stood out among the hippies. In fact, in Bugliosi's book, he recalls Manson's fury over being called a hippie. If he truly was a chameleon, he would have blended in well with prison life. In the end, he resisted that too. He lost his power.

You are absolutely correct, though, that he would manipulate people to his own ends.

thorny locust 21 November 2017 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seaboe Muffinchucker (Post 1964818)
That quote is quite interesting to me, Thorny. I read a lot of true crime, and can't remember ever reading a description of the Family killings that didn't note that Manson was really quite conservative.

I remember, however, there being a good bit of discussion along the lines of 'see where all this free love long hair business leads to!' and 'living in communes is dangerous!', etcetera.

I can't provide cites, though; and it's possible my recollection's misleading.

Sooeygun 22 November 2017 02:42 PM

I recommend the 'You Must Remember This' podcast series about Manson.

http://www.youmustrememberthispodcas...manson-murders

She looks in depth at Manson's connections with various famous people (Dennis Wilson, Candace Bergen/Terry Melcher/Doris Day), what was going on at the ranch, the realities of the "Summer of Love".

Seaboe Muffinchucker 22 November 2017 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thorny locust (Post 1964837)
I remember, however, there being a good bit of discussion along the lines of 'see where all this free love long hair business leads to!' and 'living in communes is dangerous!', etcetera.

I can't provide cites, though; and it's possible my recollection's misleading.

Oh, I recall that, too. A lot of the authors note that while he was personally conservative, he was more than willing to take advantage of those liberal ideas (such as free love and communes) that benefited him.

Let's face it. Manson didn't perceive people as human beings deserving of life, liberty & the pursuit of happiness, he perceived them as objects to be manipulated into serving his desires.

Seaboe

Mouse 23 November 2017 01:25 AM

That's about what I think, Seaboe. Manson borrowed from hippie ideas/motifs, because they were useful to him. If he was operating in a different location/time, he probably would have chosen different ideas to wrap himself in. If he had been operating in the Deep South during the Reagan administration, maybe he would have become a firebrand Christian Conservative Preacher. It's why I think he's basically a chameleon; throw him into any location and he'll shift into whatever form will allow him to attract people to manipulate.

E. Q. Taft 24 November 2017 08:07 PM

Battle erupts over control of Charles Manson's remains, estate
 
There’s a battle brewing over the remains and estate of mass murderer Charles Manson.

Reports of two unverified wills surfaced Friday, with each leaving the killer’s estate to a different person.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nati...icle-1.3654743


All times are GMT. The time now is 06:42 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.