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BringTheNoise 21 March 2013 02:44 PM

[Scottish Independence] Referendum Set
 
The referendum will take place on September 18th 2014

A Bill has been introduced to Parliament to this effect. A separate Bill is already being debated regarding allowing 16 and 17 year olds to vote in the Referendum

I've posted a few thoughts to my blog:

Quote:

I'm planning a longer and more in depth post on this in the near future, but my snap judgement is that Scotland will not vote for independence, and that staying in the Union is the best thing for the country in the long term.

Embra 21 March 2013 11:00 PM

Interesting... here we go then!

I find I don't have a strong opinion on the matter any more: I think I would have felt more strongly against it in the 90s, when independence seemed to arise so often alongside an expression of anti-English sentiment. Not to mention the fact that it's now a long time since I've actually lived in Scotland: I don't exactly have my finger on the pulse any more...

Of course, if there is a yes, England is basically abandoned to the right... :(

Andrew of Ware 21 March 2013 11:47 PM

That's my fear as well. Perpetual Cameron. (Shudders)

Independence will be bad for the UK, I feel, but a disaster for Scotland.

Auburn Red 21 March 2013 11:56 PM

The question is can Scotland economically stand on its own and is their government sound enough to rule without the backing of Parliament? :confused: Independance is all well and good, but if a country cannot stand alone that independance will be doomed before it barely begins.

Andrew of Ware 22 March 2013 12:04 AM

Scotland has had its own Parliament since 1999 (I think that was the date) and of course it did have a Parliament before the creation of Great Britain in 1707. It was not as highly developed as the English Parliament of the time, though.

I do wonder if Scotland can stand alone, especially economically. Tourism and whisky exports will not pay back English, Northern Irish and Welsh taxpayers towards the billions given to bail out the Royal Bank of Scotland.

BringTheNoise 22 March 2013 12:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew of Ware (Post 1723186)
Scotland has had its own Parliament since 1999 (I think that was the date)

It was - I was there! (I represented my school in a parade - I still have the sweatshirt and waterproof jacket we got for free somewhere in my parents' house).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew of Ware (Post 1723186)
I do wonder if Scotland can stand alone, especially economically. Tourism and whisky exports will not pay back English, Northern Irish and Welsh taxpayers towards the billions given to bail out the Royal Bank of Scotland.

The question of how to share out the UK's debts is definitely a big one. I'm not sure Scotland should take the whole of the debt for RBS though - NatWest and Ulster Bank were part of that group.

Moku 22 March 2013 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Auburn Red (Post 1723180)
The question is can Scotland economically stand on its own and is their government sound enough to rule without the backing of Parliament? :confused: Independance is all well and good, but if a country cannot stand alone that independance will be doomed before it barely begins.

What do you mean by "sound" in that context?

Richard W 22 March 2013 11:54 AM

Will you be able to manage without any proper English politicians to help?

GaryM 22 March 2013 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Auburn Red (Post 1723180)
The question is can Scotland economically stand on its own and is their government sound enough to rule without the backing of Parliament?

I'm against Scottish independence and plan to vote that way next year, but I'm sure that if we wanted to, we could form a government that could stand on its own. After all, the Scottish Parliament and Scottish Government currently deal with all matters except the constitution, defence and international relations and I don't think it's beyond us to deal with those things as well.

GaryM 22 March 2013 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard W (Post 1723284)
Will you be able to manage without any proper English politicians to help?

Jings! Crivvens! Help ma Boab! Us Scots can legislate on agriculture, fisheries and forestry, economic development, education, environment, food standards, health, home affairs, Scots law, courts, police and fire services, local government, sport and the arts, transport, tourism, research and social work but we widnae ken how to sort oot defence unless an Englishman showed us how!

Nah, don't see it myself :) Actually this whole independence thing has gotten out of hand - all we really wanted was English people to stop looking suspiciously at Scottish banknotes.

Dasla 22 March 2013 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GaryM (Post 1723326)
Nah, don't see it myself :) Actually this whole independence thing has gotten out of hand - all we really wanted was English people to stop looking suspiciously at Scottish banknotes.

Well it is the Scottish backnotes fault for looking so suspicious in the first place. :p

Andrew of Ware 22 March 2013 03:11 PM

I'm afraid to say that Scottish banknotes do look a bit like glorified Monopoly money, but there again so do Euros. I presume Scotland, if it does vote for independence will not adopt the Euro. I believe it will keep the monarchy.

What really troubles me is what will Team GB be called at the Olympics if Scotland does go it alone? We can hardly call it Team GB minus Scotland plus Northern Ireland.

Dasla 22 March 2013 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew of Ware (Post 1723352)
I'm afraid to say that Scottish banknotes do look a bit like glorified Monopoly money, but there again so do Euros. I presume Scotland, if it does vote for independence will not adopt the Euro. I believe it will keep the monarchy.


Yeah when Australian money changed a few years ago, people said the same thing. My theory is that this is because it is so obviously meant to be money, but not as we know it (:D). When it is first introduced it still has that "unused" look about it (unlike money from over countries which looks well worn). Therefore it looks like "play" money.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew of Ware (Post 1723352)
What really troubles me is what will Team GB be called at the Olympics if Scotland does go it alone? We can hardly call it Team GB minus Scotland plus Northern Ireland.

Why not, it's very catchy :D It can be shortened to TGBMSPNI.

Richard W 22 March 2013 03:32 PM

I still don't understand why it's not "Team UK" already. That's more accurate and has fewer dubious political connotations than "Team GB". And we wouldn't need to change it if Scotland went.

Auburn Red 22 March 2013 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moku (Post 1723268)
What do you mean by "sound" in that context?

I guess I meant strong enough to stand on its own, which sounds true that it can from what other Snopesters have said.


Quote:

What really troubles me is what will Team GB be called at the Olympics if Scotland does go it alone? We can hardly call it Team GB minus Scotland plus Northern Ireland.
Didn't the former Soviet Union have a really catchy name when they entered the 1992 Olympics, maybe Great Britain can steal that name. ;)

BringTheNoise 22 March 2013 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew of Ware (Post 1723352)
What really troubles me is what will Team GB be called at the Olympics if Scotland does go it alone? We can hardly call it Team GB minus Scotland plus Northern Ireland.

I know want to see Team GB minus Scotland plus Northern Ireland play Team Former Yugoslav Republic Of Macedonia...

Andrew, you may have changed my vote! :lol:

Wintermute 22 March 2013 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GaryM (Post 1723320)
I'm against Scottish independence and plan to vote that way next year, but I'm sure that if we wanted to, we could form a government that could stand on its own. .

Why are you against it? My mother is very into all this but I am not. She always says that's our history but my family moved here around 200 years ago. I know she went to Scotland a few years ago as a tourist.

Embra 22 March 2013 09:49 PM

Bad day at work and now this thread is making me lol. Thank you everyone :)

Alex Salmond is The Most Canny Politician in the world: I have never seen or heard him ruffled in an interview. I admire and distrust him in equal measure for that!

Anyhow. As my twitter feed is all full of bleeding heart human rights things (for work, of course. At home I'm a perfect monster), I like the incorporation of the human rights agenda into the Scottish body politic. I am a bit worried that Scots are not as nice as Alex Salmond wants us to be...

What's that Paladin? [/childhood]

Moku 23 March 2013 11:41 AM

Paladin? That lamp that spoke to whatsis name? That used to creep me out. What was the show called?

Moku 23 March 2013 11:44 AM

@Andrew of Ware
I think all you mean about Scottish banknotes is that they don't look familiar to *you*.. Those of us who deal with them daily probably don't notice their design any more than you notice the design of BoE notes.

Embra 23 March 2013 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moku (Post 1723614)
Paladin? That lamp that spoke to whatsis name? That used to creep me out. What was the show called?

Glen Michael's Cavalcade. And really, I was much too old for it when we did move to Scotland, but it's seeped into my memories nevertheless!

Embra 23 March 2013 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moku (Post 1723615)
@Andrew of Ware
I think all you mean about Scottish banknotes is that they don't look familiar to *you*.. Those of us who deal with them daily probably don't notice their design any more than you notice the design of BoE notes.

Yes, they're really perfectly ordinary-looking. I always found the "bank of toytown" thing a bit annoying. And I always liked the fiver with the mouse on...

GaryM 23 March 2013 03:56 PM

A YouGov opinion poll this week suggests that:
  • 56% of people want Scotland to remain part of the UK
  • 17% of people want Scotland to leave the UK but keep the pound sterling (the SNP's position)
  • 10% of people want Scotland to leave the UK and create its own currency

Andrew of Ware 23 March 2013 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moku (Post 1723615)
@Andrew of Ware
I think all you mean about Scottish banknotes is that they don't look familiar to *you*.. Those of us who deal with them daily probably don't notice their design any more than you notice the design of BoE notes.

Oh, they're perfectly familiar to me. My dad was brought up in Edinburgh and we went up there every year to visit gran. She always sent us Scottish pound notes on our birthdays and at Christmas. I often go on holiday to Scotland. As each Scottish bank issues its own notes there are many designs and having Clydesdale Bank (or some other local bank name) did not have the gravitas of Bank of England.

Richard W 23 March 2013 08:49 PM

I wonder if they're going to reprint the RBS ones to say "The bearer guarantees to pay the Royal Bank of Scotland the sum of 10 on demand"?

Wanderer 24 March 2013 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GaryM (Post 1723648)
A YouGov opinion poll this week suggests that:
  • 56% of people want Scotland to remain part of the UK
  • 17% of people want Scotland to leave the UK but keep the pound sterling (the SNP's position)
  • 10% of people want Scotland to leave the UK and create its own currency

What about the other 17%?

BringTheNoise 25 March 2013 12:06 PM

"Undecided/No Opinion" most likely - not the worst position to hold 18 months out from the actual vote.

GenYus234 25 March 2013 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Embra (Post 1723617)
And I always liked the fiver with the mouse on...

No True Scotsman would be spending a fiver on anything... :p

BringTheNoise 04 April 2013 11:40 AM

I've finally completed by my full blog post on the Referendum

Don Enrico 05 April 2013 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew of Ware (Post 1723186)
I do wonder if Scotland can stand alone, especially economically. Tourism and whisky exports will not pay back English, Northern Irish and Welsh taxpayers towards the billions given to bail out the Royal Bank of Scotland.

Setting aside the specific RBS problem, would Tourism and Whisky be the only economic assets of an independent Scotland? There was "Silicon Glen", but I don't know what is left of that after the IT bubble popped. Additionally, most of the British oil and gas are actually off the Scottish coast - raising the question if those resources would be transfered to the new nation.

Andrew of Ware 05 April 2013 02:00 PM

I have been wondering about the oil and gas from the North Sea. As most of the money to develop it came from English, Northern Irish and Welsh tax payers then these countries must have a call to a lot of the profits.

BringTheNoise 05 April 2013 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew of Ware (Post 1726988)
I have been wondering about the oil and gas from the North Sea. As most of the money to develop it came from English, Northern Irish and Welsh tax payers then these countries must have a call to a lot of the profits.

As far as I can tell, that's not how international law works. The rest of the UK would have no more claim on Scottish oil than Scotland would have on English or Welsh coal.

Zachary Fizz 05 April 2013 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew of Ware (Post 1726988)
I have been wondering about the oil and gas from the North Sea. As most of the money to develop it came from English, Northern Irish and Welsh tax payers then these countries must have a call to a lot of the profits.

I think the money to develop it came from private companies, but the very significant taxes raised on the oil have been enjoyed by successive governments of the whole of the UK.

As BringTheNoise observes, there wouldn't be any grounds for reimbursement in any case.

I think the Shetlanders have pointed out that it is actually their oil, and there is no reason to assume that the Shetlands must automatically follow the Scots if Scotland goes independent. But if they did, then I don't see that the rest of the UK could have any claim against Scottish oil revenues.

BringTheNoise 05 April 2013 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zachary Fizz (Post 1727015)
I think the Shetlanders have pointed out that it is actually their oil, and there is no reason to assume that the Shetlands must automatically follow the Scots if Scotland goes independent.

Well, apart from the important reason that Shetland isn't being offered independence separate from the rest of Scotland. Shetland can no more demand that their local results be treated separately than the people of Dumfriesshire, Dundee or anywhere else.

Richard W 05 April 2013 03:57 PM

Orkney and Shetland could make reasonable claims for independence of their own, though - or at least claim that they're historically part of Norway not Scotland.

I seem to remember from the last time I looked at this, that because the border between England and Scotland is actually SW to NE (in fact I think it's closer to running North - South than East - West), if you extend it to split the gas fields then more of them than you'd think are on the English side of the line anyway.

Don Enrico 08 April 2013 06:37 AM

Richard, you wouldn't extend the border on land into the sea to determine the sea (and more importantly, the continental shelf border). When territorial seas overlap, the border "is taken as the median point between the states' baselines" (Wikipedia). In the case of a land border hitting the shore, that usually means that the sea border extends vertically to what the baseline at that point is. Judging from Google Maps, it would probably extend in a north-east-to-east direction on the east coast of Scotland / England.

I've got no idea about where the oil and gas fields actually are in the North Sea, though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard W (Post 1727029)
Orkney and Shetland could make reasonable claims for independence of their own, though - or at least claim that they're historically part of Norway not Scotland.

Didn't the Orkney Islands once ask Norway to become part of their country as a publicity action in protest to the construction of the Dounreay nuclear power plant?

BringTheNoise 08 April 2013 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard W (Post 1727029)
Orkney and Shetland could make reasonable claims for independence of their own, though - or at least claim that they're historically part of Norway not Scotland.

Shetland and Orkney have been part of Scotland since the 15th (and only became Norwegian when they were invaded in the 9th Century). Historical arguments in this regard are a bit dodgy, I'd say.

Generally, however, I accept that they have as much right as anywhere else to seek independence - but bringing it up now with regard to oil and gas is a bit of a red herring, as it's not on the table.

GaryM 08 April 2013 03:20 PM

From the Guardian, 17th March 2013:

As the first minister, Alex Salmond, looks south and campaigns for an independent Scotland, leaders in Orkney, Shetland and the Western Isles to his north have quietly begun talks among themselves about their own "home rule".

The three leaders, who run the three largest island groups in the British isles, will meet in Shetland on Monday 25 March to discuss a joint project on whether they should demand a split from the Scottish and UK governments after the Scottish independence referendum in 2014 the date of which is expected to be announced in Holyrood on Thursday.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2...ands-home-rule

Richard W 08 April 2013 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BringTheNoise (Post 1727508)
Shetland and Orkney have been part of Scotland since the 15th (and only became Norwegian when they were invaded in the 9th Century). Historical arguments in this regard are a bit dodgy, I'd say.

Scotland's been part of the UK since the early 18th Century. Your point?

(eta) Technically, the (united) Kingdom of Great Britain at that point, I suppose. It's only been part of the United (capital U) Kingdom since 1801, but then again, so has England. And we've both only been part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland since 1922. As you say, historical arguments in this regard are a bit dodgy...

(eta again) I only just got round to reading your blog piece. That was pretty interesting - I didn't know some of those things...

Andrew of Ware 18 September 2013 09:09 AM

If Scotland votes for independence next year then they are claiming they will have a separate team in the 2016 Olympics.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/olympics/24081596

I suppose that depends on when Scotland actually becomes independent and if it can meet the IOC's strict rules. It might be like South Sedan at the London Olympics which (I am told) competed under the IOC Flag.

I am wondering if this is a desperate attempt by the SNP to get more people in favour of independence - opinion polls seem to suggest that support for an independent Scotland is dwindling.


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