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-   -   [Scottish Independence] Referendum Set (http://message.snopes.com/showthread.php?t=84736)

DawnStorm 21 September 2013 03:35 AM

Your banknotes are rather colorful! :D

Dawn--and I wanted to use the C-Note to buy a hotel on Boardwalk when the US Mint first redesigned the larger bills--Storm

BringTheNoise 16 August 2014 02:29 PM

So, we're getting pretty close to the actual vote, and we've seen opinions from a lot of people, but the most bizarre interjection so far must go to Australian Prime Minister Tony Abbot:

Quote:

Mr Abbott told the Times: "What the Scots do is a matter for the Scots and not for a moment do I presume to tell Scottish voters which way they should vote. "But as a friend of Britain, as an observer from afar, it's hard to see how the world would be helped by an independent Scotland.

"I think that the people who would like to see the break-up of the United Kingdom are not the friends of justice, the friends of freedom, and the countries that would cheer at the prospect... are not the countries whose company one would like to keep."
Is... Is he thinking of somewhere else entirely? As I've said before, I'm not pro-Independence but this is just nonsense.

ETA: Link - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...itics-28814936

Pinecone 16 August 2014 02:41 PM

:confused:
What, are we actually voting to join the Axis of Evil?

BringTheNoise 16 August 2014 02:48 PM

Maybe he thinks the SNP are planning to literally break up the UK, by planting bombs along the border and setting Scotland adrift, as part of a nefarious HYDRA plot?

Penny 16 August 2014 02:51 PM

Oh god, did someone let Abbott speak to grown-ups again?

Sorry about that. We try to keep him muzzled but occasionally he escapes.

GaryM 16 August 2014 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pinecone (Post 1837985)
What, are we actually voting to join the Axis of Evil?

That's "Plan B" if we can't join the EU.

Richard W 16 August 2014 04:16 PM

George RR Martin thinks you should build a big wall to keep out the English:

http://www.theguardian.com/books/201...ones-interview

(The exact quote I was looking for seems to have been in a different interview...) Maybe Abbott thinks you'd be passing the country to wildlings and white walkers.

GaryM 16 August 2014 04:54 PM

Scottish people are nothing like wildlings! They live in the north, beyond a great wall, and have a clan-based society. Scottish people, on the other hand...

E. Q. Taft 16 August 2014 05:53 PM

I just generally oppose breaking up a country, and particularly on ethnic grounds. But as a mongrel American who wasn't really raised as anything other than "suburban white guy" I don't have any particular ethnic loyalties. My patriotism, such as it is, is to the ideals the US is based around (not that we always have done to well in following them, of course) - freedom of expression, equality before the law, due process and all that. In my ideal world, people would treat their ethnic heritage as a perhaps interesting bit of trivia, but little else.

Now, if it's a case of the central government acting in ways that are antithetical to the best interests of Scotland, then separation might be an option, if other remedies have failed. But if it's just a matter of ethnicity and cultural differences, then I see all parts of the UK as being strengthened by the diversity.

The fact the people all over the world seem to be getting more conscious of their ethnic identities, not less, and that so many groups are demanding autonomy based upon it, to me does not augur well for the future.

BamaRainbow 16 August 2014 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BringTheNoise (Post 1837987)
Maybe he thinks the SNP are planning to literally break up the UK, by planting bombs along the border and setting Scotland adrift, as part of a nefarious HYDRA plot?

HYDRA? Please. Rank amateurs.

Now, HERE'S a terrorist plot that the SNP could only dream of emulating:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xiTM2HQ0g98

Pinecone 17 August 2014 01:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by E. Q. Taft (Post 1838009)
Now, if it's a case of the central government acting in ways that are antithetical to the best interests of Scotland, then separation might be an option, if other remedies have failed. But if it's just a matter of ethnicity and cultural differences, then I see all parts of the UK as being strengthened by the diversity.

It's not just that the UK government acts against Scotland's best interests, it's that our say doesn't even count. Only one of the Conservative MPs was voted in by Scotland, yet we're governed by a Conservative government.
Ethnic and cultural differences have nothing to do with it, except that Scotland tends far more towards socialism than England.

Dasla 19 August 2014 02:44 AM

Quote:

Mr Abbott told the Times: "What the Scots do is a matter for the Scots and not for a moment do I presume to tell Scottish voters which way they should vote.
And that is where you should have stopped Mr Abbott.

It is one thing when he says silly things concerning Australian issues, it another concerning another country.

I guess Australia is not going to get another chance on voting to become a republic during this term. (Not that I thought we had a snowball chance in hades) :)

GaryM 23 August 2014 01:29 PM

Police Scotland planning extra security at independence referendum polling stations
 
From http://www.thecourier.co.uk/news/pol...tions-1.536637

Police presence will be increased at polling stations on September 18 in anticipation of potential trouble when passions run high as people cast their votes on independence.

An exceptionally high turnout is expected and the debate has been highly emotive, with figures on both sides being subject to abuse, threats and alleged instances of violence and vandalism.

It is understood there are also plans for a higher police presence at the overnight counts where the referendum results will be announced, while security around ballot boxes will be exceptionally tight to ward off any potential suggestion of vote tampering.

BringTheNoise 23 August 2014 02:39 PM

Talk about gratitude - English voters want a cut in Scottish public spending if we vote No in the referendum: http://www.heraldscotland.com/politi...endum.25092377

Steve 27 August 2014 08:18 PM

The title of that article implies that the English desire for cuts in UK spending on Scotland are a punishment for the referendum. But the way English people are answering the questions in the poll seems consistent with the way you'd expect them to answer if you look at polls from 2000 to 2012. It just seems to be following the trend. http://www.ippr.org/assets/media/ima...2013_11003.pdf

Embra 27 August 2014 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pinecone (Post 1838036)
Ethnic and cultural differences have nothing to do with it, except that Scotland tends far more towards socialism than England.

While I agree that ethnicity doesn't come into it, the fact that the political fulcrum in Scotland is further to the left is part of what you could call a cultural difference (political culture, I suppose).

Basically, I think that the people of Scotland are fortunate to live in a defined political unit that could realistically leave the union, so that it is reasonable to hold a referendum on the point.

Everyone is bored to death about the currency issue, but it is probably the only thing that bothers me: the Yes campaign explicitly aims for a currency union that risks leaving so much financial power out of Scottish hands.

Campaign-wise, No is pretty dreadful (I'm not even going to post a link to the awful "Wummin know yer limits" film just released, it's so awful!), but I think it has the harder task to look good: the word "no" for starters, but also having to sell the current set-up in Westminster, and the unedifying suggestion that a Yes vote might make the English a bit sad.

Richard W 28 August 2014 07:47 AM

I sometimes think there are people on the "No" side who are deliberately trying to sabotage it. Certainly every time David Cameron says anything on the matter, it would make me more likely to vote "Yes" if I lived in Scotland. And he's somebody who obviously has to support unity in public but who I can imagine privately wishing the Scots would go away... The rest of the Conservatives aren't much better either.

Mr. Billion 31 August 2014 07:52 AM

How often does this issue come up for a vote? If pro-independence groups lose this vote, could they just keep trying every year until they succeed?

Richard W 31 August 2014 12:38 PM

This is the first referendum there's been, Mr. Billion. I think there is some provision that there won't be another one for at least a certain time if the answer here is "No", but I can't remember the details off-hand.

I was listening to Billy Bragg last night and came to post a link to Take Down The Union Jack (not that it's new - it predates the decision to have a referendum - just that I was reminded that it's a good song and relevant now).

As I Googled it I discovered that coincidentally he's also just written an interesting essay on the exact topic which is published in today's Herald Scotland:

Billy Bragg: how Scottish independence would help England rediscover its radical heart

Quote:

The ballot paper asks a simple question of the people of Scotland: should it be an independent country? But for those of us watching from the rest of the UK, the Scots will be addressing a question that has implications for us all: is it possible to do things differently, to re-organise how we run our society in order to create a better outcome for everyone, not just those at the top?

If the people of Scotland are willing to explore that possibility, if the answer to the question is Yes, then the tens of millions of people in England, for whom devolution has been nothing more than a spectator sport, will be suddenly galvanised.

...

On September 18, our fate will be in the hands of the people of Scotland. If you vote in favour of meaningful change, you will write a new chapter in our island story.

Furthermore, by embracing independence, you will have given England the chance to be a nation again.
(There seems to be a confusing editing error in the middle of it at the moment). It's also interesting because I've just finished reading about the English Civil War, which is not nearly as well known or understood as it should be, I think. Billy Bragg mentions that too.

I'm actually starting to come down on the Yes side too. I think Bragg is being optimistic about the effect it will have on England, but it will at least shake things up, and we need that. I like to be optimistic too, so it would be good to think that a change in the structure of the country would lead to better, more representative, government in England as well. For all the (justifiable) claims from Scotland that the Westminster government is broken and doesn't represent them, a lot of people in England feel the same way, and we don't get to be "independent" from it.

Embra 01 September 2014 10:09 PM

I am coming round to a much more "Yes" POV... I could be made to feel optimistic about the democratic possibilities of a smaller nation, nearer to its government.

Mind you, in 2010 I hoped that the Lib Dems might restrain the Tories, and in 1997 I thought we were getting a left of centre government. No one is going to be buying my political insight any time soon:D

ETA: thanks for the Billy Bragg, Richard. You can't beat a bit of Billy.


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